so you were thinking about OUTSOURCING??

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by jpachard

Outsourcing has to stop. Now.

So, are you going to work with us to get the tax code changed so that manufacturing is cost effective here?

[AirKuhl]

We hire all over the world for service, engineering, sales and manufacturing. Most of our employees are in the US so far but most of our growth is not.

Why do we do it?

Sales because it needs to be local to wherever the sales are.
Service because it's virtual so it doesn't matter where it's located.
Engineering because I can hire 3 MS or PhD electrical engineers in India for the cost of one here, and it's easier to find people with advanced degrees there than here.
Manufacturing because even with robots doing everything and paying for shipping, it's still way cheaper in China.

Whose fault is it? It's not mine.

It's yours. Because you (the consumer in the US) aren't willing to pay the 10% more my widget would cost. You talk up a storm about "Made in the USA" but buy all your crap at the Dollar Store or Harbor Freight. If I made all my stuff in the US I'd be out of business in a year.

If you're reading this and saying that it's not true and you check labels and specs and pay extra for US made, then good for you, but you are a very small minority. Those fat chicks in sweat pants rolling overflowing carts out of Walmart to their made-in-Mexico "domestic" SUV's couldn't care less as long as that toaster was a dollar cheaper.

[red-beard]

Pete, if corporate and payroll taxes were eliminated, would that help? Would that cut your costs by at least 10%?

[Scott R]

We're in the same situation as Pete. You could cut 60-70% of the cost out of manufacturing in the US and it still wouldn't be cheaper than what we do in China.

I also have to echo his comments on engineers, I can get 3-1 in the software world in India as well, they have advanced degrees and outstanding work ethics. In our case it's "virtual" as well and our customers are none the wiser.

Sadly I'll be marching to another 15% global sourcing this year in my division. It shows in our bottom line, and that's what makes the money holders happy. The odd change this year is we're now pulling away from the EU (which we expanded into two years ago) and moving most of that eastern Europe.

[AirKuhl]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Pete, if corporate and payroll taxes were eliminated, would that help? Would that cut your costs by at least 10%?

I wish it were that easy but it still wouldn't be competitive. The overall US marginal corporate income tax rate is too high, but as a high-tech company with a big R&D budget, we have offsets that put our effective tax rate below 10% due to the retroactive reenactment of the U.S. federal R&D tax credit.

At the end of the day, we're dealing with different sets of rules and expectations. The average standard of living and the various environmental and safety laws vary by country. The playing field will never be level unless we enact massive laws and oversight, which is never a good idea.

IMO, it's better for us as a country to accept that and play to our historical strengths in innovation, creativity, research, exploration, design, etc. rather than relying on a bunch of government fiddling to somehow make menial labor a viable career in the US. Cutting edge manufacturing is still viable, we still build billion dollar foundries in the US and compete globally, for example. This puts more pressure on us as a country, but we do our best under pressure anyway.

The thing that concerns me the most is that we're growing this underclass of undereducated underachievers who don't expect to work hard or take risks, yet expect plenty of leisure time and enough disposable income to mount dubs on their Escalade. They say that the reason there is a devil is because you can't experience good without evil. Well, you can't experience easy without hard either.

My .02

[Zeke]

This thread is pathetic. I'm very happy I'm at the far end of the life span. I could easily speed my ultimate demise if I followed my desire to shoot a couple of the posters here right between the eyes. They deserve it.

Maybe a disgruntled employee....

[jpachard]

Originally Posted by Scott R

We're in the same situation as Pete. You could cut 60-70% of the cost out of manufacturing in the US and it still wouldn't be cheaper than what we do in China.

I also have to echo his comments on engineers, I can get 3-1 in the software world in India as well, they have advanced degrees and outstanding work ethics. In our case it's "virtual" as well and our customers are none the wiser.

Sadly I'll be marching to another 15% global sourcing this year in my division. It shows in our bottom line, and that's what makes the money holders happy. The odd change this year is we're now pulling away from the EU (which we expanded into two years ago) and moving most of that eastern Europe.

Yes, and how much of that code did you have to rewrite, QC, etc etc. ( I have nothing against the Indians BTW, I'm in a relationship with one and you are correct that they are incredibly bright) I bet in the end you would find it's easier and possibly cheaper to do it here, especially once you factor in all the traveling and other unaccounted for expenses.

Being a Mechanical Engineer I take pride in saying we have a great deal to offer here as far as skills but there are too few of us to make an impact. When I was getting ready to go to college Engineering wasn't cool and I blame the schools for that but that's a whole other topic of discussion.

Frankly it makes me sad when people won't really look at the long term and really try to keep out IP, skills and talent in this country and foster it. There is always some half hearted excuse as to why outsourcing is better. Yes, companies need to be profitable but they also need to be rewarded tax wise for investing in innovation.

I cite my example again, how come Germany, which is not much bigger than Arizona land wise, be second in exports worldwide and keep their employees well paid, have great benefits and still make cutting edge products? Because they work their butts off and have a work ethic that is second to none. They have successfully branded the whole country and if you ask anyone worldwide what their first impression of German products is, I bet 90% would say quality. That's what the US has to strive for, STAT.


We have that here but as long as we try to take the easy way out all the time to make a quick buck we are doomed as a nation.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by milt

This thread is pathetic. I'm very happy I'm at the far end of the life span. I could easily speed my ultimate demise if I followed my desire to shoot a couple of the posters here right between the eyes. They deserve it.

Maybe a disgruntled employee....

lighten up Francis

The truth is the truth whether it hurts to hear or not.

[jpachard]

Originally Posted by milt

This thread is pathetic. I'm very happy I'm at the far end of the life span. I could easily speed my ultimate demise if I followed my desire to shoot a couple of the posters here right between the eyes. They deserve it.

Maybe a disgruntled employee....

Well, that was constructive, care to elaborate? This type of attitude is EXACTLY why we are in the situation we are in now.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by jpachard

Well, that was constructive, care to elaborate? This type of attitude is EXACTLY why we are in the situation we are in now.

I think I'm more on your side. It's the pussys that can only count money that I refer to.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by jpachard

Yes, and how much of that code did you have to rewrite, QC, etc etc. ( I have nothing against the Indians BTW, I'm in a relationship with one and you are correct that they are incredibly bright) I bet in the end you would find it's easier and possibly cheaper to do it here, especially once you factor in all the traveling and other unaccounted for expenses.

Being a Mechanical Engineer I take pride in saying we have a great deal to offer here as far as skills but there are too few of us to make an impact. When I was getting ready to go to college Engineering wasn't cool and I blame the schools for that but that's a whole other topic of discussion.

Frankly it makes me sad when people won't really look at the long term and really try to keep out IP, skills and talent in this country and foster it. There is always some half hearted excuse as to why outsourcing is better. Yes, companies need to be profitable but they also need to be rewarded tax wise for investing in innovation.

I cite my example again, how come Germany, which is not much bigger than Arizona land wise, be second in exports worldwide and keep their employees well paid, have great benefits and still make cutting edge products? Because they work their butts off and have a work ethic that is second to none. They have successfully branded the whole country and if you ask anyone worldwide what their first impression of German products is, I bet 90% would say quality. That's what the US has to strive for, STAT.


We have that here but as long as we try to take the easy way out all the time to make a quick buck we are doomed as a nation.

Not really anything in the way of re-writes, in fact, and this holds true of my years with Big Blue as well, some code probably got a little better going overseas. IT outsourcing has been going on for better than a decade now and it never really diminishes. It sometimes comes back to domestic, but more often than not it stays where the cheap and willing labor is.

The individuals that we source globally work right along side US counterparts in a pretty seamless flow. Beyond the names you would almost never guess they were even sitting in another country. It's just normal practice anymore in my business.

My industry is different in that our product is not as tangible as others. However for many years we printed all the plastic credit cards, and built and designed most, if not all of the devices people use for electronic banking. Right down to that little thing you slide your card though at the store, to the ATM's you pull cash out of.

We did this in California and Omaha mainly, some in Delaware and Florida. However about seven years ago it became advantageous to build the same product in Asia, so we did. I doubt anyone ever notices that you swipe your card through a terminal made in China, I also doubt they care.

Long post, but I wanted to stress the point that this not for short term profits. It's a long term situation in the technology world, something we have come to accept as part of the business model. I doubt we could get people to work in the plastic presses anymore for the wages we would be able to pay.

[pitargue]

India is going through their employment boom that sillycone valley has seen in the 90's. Engineers in India (Hyderabad and Bangalore) have been switching jobs at 50% to 100% increase in compensation. (I know personal examples.) Our biggest problem in India is talent retention. I have heard that cisco now considers the cost of doing (some) business in India has reached parity to that of the US.

Unfortunately, there's few qualified staff in the US to take up the slack. It took but a very short time to make that happen. This is very scary.

What people don't realize is that the real talented Indians immigrate to the USA to pursue the American dream. The Indians in India, although bright and intelligent, just don't have that extra drive and motivation that is seen in those that come the USA.

People seeking freedom and liberty really are a different bunch. Hopefully, we can keep this country the way it is to keep attracting the best and brightest the world has to offer.

[J P Stein]

The original poster was speaking of aircraft parts. They are a different kettle of fish than auto parts or nearly anything else for that matter.

Look at Boeing's 787. There's plenty of stuff on the net to educate you.
The 5 Billion development cost is now closer to 22 B due to inept out sourcing.....oh and 3 years minimum late which is also gonna cost another bundle.

[Scuba Steve]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

my amigo gave another example: of bar-b-ques. ever hear of GENAIR? you know all the stainless steel grills for $149 bucks @ home creepo/lowes? genair figured they would outsource their stainless bar-b-ques to save money on labor.


contracted with chinese for stainless. well the chinese are not stoopid, they bought the cheapest lowest quality stainless steel and now all the bar-b-ques are RUSTING and being taken back to home depot/lowes.



and this damn near KILLED GENAIR!

Speaking of rusting stainless... a coworker was looking at a house about 8 years old on Daniels Island or in Mt Pleasant and it had all kinds of strange corrosion issues. Both exchangers were corroded through, mirrors were blackening and the stainless appliances were rusting.

Thank you, Chinese sheetrock. She bought an older place somewhere around Goose Creek instead.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

The original poster was speaking of aircraft parts. They are a different kettle of fish than auto parts or nearly anything else for that matter.

Look at Boeing's 787. There's plenty of stuff on the net to educate you.
The 5 Billion development cost is now closer to 22 B due to inept out sourcing.....oh and 3 years minimum late which is also gonna cost another bundle.

RIGHTO! BOEING IS FOAMING AT THE MOUTH AT HONEYWELL because of their late delivery of parts on the 787, let alone other models.



why because the 1st outsource started in the 90's. that failed and they had to eat poo. then the 2nd bigger badder meaner leaner outsourcing started anew with "gringos" in greater numbers at outsourcing plants..........................and GUESS WHAT?

and they STILL HAVE CRAPPY PARTS................aka REWORK!


freeking boeing is ready to KILL EVERYONE who outsourced the 2nd time, to post profits to the board and share holders.



crap pay me 250K to make dum azz decisions like that!

[911pcars]

Here's an interesting statement found on Wiki's page on "Outsourcing":

"Union busting is one cause of outsourcing. As unions are disadvantage by union busting legislation, workers lose bargaining power and it becomes easier for corporations to fire them and ship their job overseas."

And on another occasion, it was said that US corporations are no longer as motivated to invest in US education and training because they can increase their bottom line by outsourcing overseas to those who are both educated and will work for a fraction of US labor rates.

I'm afraid this trend will continue until worldwide labor costs reach a certain equilibrium, at which point and when ...... who knows? Too many variables in economics to predict with certainty.

Sherwood

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Here's an interesting statement found on Wiki's page on "Outsourcing":

"Union busting is one cause of outsourcing. As unions are disadvantage by union busting legislation, workers lose bargaining power and it becomes easier for corporations to fire them and ship their job overseas."

And on another occasion, it was said that US corporations are no longer as motivated to invest in US education and training because they can increase their bottom line by outsourcing overseas to those who are both educated and will work for a fraction of US labor rates.

I'm afraid this trend will continue until worldwide labor costs reach a certain equilibrium, at which point and when ...... who knows? Too many variables in economics to predict with certainty.

Sherwood

If this were true, why is it that a lot of the "outsourced" jobs go to Texas and other right to work states?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by jpachard

Yes, I should have clarified we need to stop outsourcing manufacturing jobs. Call centers, at least in my mind, fall under the service industry sector which I think is fine to outsource as long as the quality of the service does not suffer as a result.

Why do you make a distinction between service jobs and manufacturing jobs?

Keeping service jobs wages here in our economy stimulates demand for manufactured goods here at home, does it not?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

And on another occasion, it was said that US corporations are no longer as motivated to invest in US education and training because they can increase their bottom line by outsourcing overseas to those who are both educated and will work for a fraction of US labor rates.

Too true.
In India they are taking advantage of an eduction policy first pursued by Nehru and the Ghandis. But while their socialist economic system educated them, it didn't provide job opportunities. It had all these educated Indians doing menial work until economic reforms of the 1980s let US and Indian companies tap the large number of English speaking, technically educated Indians milling around doing nothing. India is taking our jobs because of their combination of socialist and capitalist practices. US companies have no motive to promote education in the US because the Indian government has successfully promoted it there. The US government could take a lesson.

[J P Stein]

Service jobs are "non value added".....they don't create wealth, they just shuffle it around.....kinda like government.