The Myth of "Over Penetration"

[masraum]

Winchester makes a "brass enclosed base" 147gr 9mm round. It's got a flat nose.

What's the difference between a BEB and a FMJTC?

There seem to actually be a fair number of options in 147gr

Blazer doesn't seem to have the best rep.




This is 147gr Winchester




So, again, is there a reason that the 123gr Fiocchi would be better than a 147gr something else, like maybe the Winchester or Federal?

[RPKESQ]

The Winchester or Federal are what you want. The Fiocchi has the lead core exposed so it will deform more and either deflect from your chosen path or mushroom and limit penetration.

I do not have any experience with the Blaser recently, but the aluminum case is not suitable for defensive use. The rims can be torn by the extractor. This I have seen happen.

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Assuming similar construction, yes, heavier seems to always penetrate better, regardless of the lower velocities attained.

I wish you were able to make it to Superman's place tomorrow. I'd like to talk more about ballistics.

[masraum]

just an fyi, Remmington and Speer also makes some. They call it "flat nose enclosed base". It's also got the open nose.

It seems like most of the 147gr stuff that's listed as fmj is actually a flat nose ammo.

[masraum]

I ran across this today.

This is a quote from the FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" article.

I've added the bolded emphasis

You can read a nice PDF version here

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.

Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.37

Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough.

[Rick Lee]

Very interesting stuff.

[jyl]

Oh, this thread isn't about what I thought it was about.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by masraum

I ran across this today.

This is a quote from the FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" article.

I've added the bolded emphasis

You can read a nice PDF version here

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf


It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.

Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.37

Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough.

Exactly what I've been telling you boys.

This duplicates my experiences when hunting. I have never seen a well hit animal fail to go down due to over-penetration. I've seen them fail to go down to bad hits, and I've seen them fail to go down to good hits lacking sufficient penetration. The latter two can turn into hour upon hour of tracking and looking for the damn thing. Sometimes even overnight. I've never lost an animal, but I've sure had to earn a few... after hitting them...

[masraum]

Originally Posted by jyl

Oh, this thread isn't about what I thought it was about.

Hahahahahah

That was my first reaction when the thread first started.







I thought maybe it was a thread about Charlie Sheen.

[Jeff Higgins]

Or one about how we "measure up..."

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I have never seen a well hit animal fail to go down due to over-penetration.

+1000

You put a correctly aimed hard cast bullet through an animals vitals? Thats a dead animal.

Perhaps a JHP would have brought them down 5 hops earlier, but the end result is......

[m21sniper]

In my Ruger LCP .380 i run Buffalo Bore .380acp+P hard cast lead flat nose "Elmer keith" style bullets. It's a 100gr bullet at 1050fps from my Ruger's tiny little 2.7" barrel, and it gets over 20" penetration in ballistics gelatin. Energy levels match that of J-frame .38spl+P loadings.

The 100gr+P Buffalo Bore round is marketed as the ultimate .380 trail defense round. To me, it's the ultimate .380 general defense round as well.