Yep, with the pocket clip the pistol is designed to be used with. The pocket clip designed and sold by the manufacturer of the pistol. (the LCP is just a warmed over Kel Tec P3AT)

Of course, i also don't keep anything else in said pocket. Maybe if you'd ever carried a pistol concealed at any stage in your life for any amount of time, you'd have a little bit of an understanding about the real world usage of these things, instead of thinking IDPA was a realistic substitute for actual experience.

Jeff Higgins agrees with me completely on this issue. Is he an expert?

I do not claim to be an expert, but i have been in the combat arms, and i have carried a pistol for about 20 years of my life, day in, day out.

You?

And the true real world experts out there, US SOCOM don't use glocks, don't issue glocks, have never issued glocks, and never will issue glocks. Furthermore, with the exception of the DAO M11 pistol, every single weapon system in the entire US military features a manual safety device.

Every. Single. One.

Which, i'm sure, is a coincidence...

Bill your be-littling attitude towards me is comical. That said, I simply think you are a very opinionated individual who will never admit when you are mistaken..... I would still buy you a beer and enjoy shooting the shiiit with you FTF. You are simply wrong if you think carrying an LCP with one in the pipe is any different than carrying a Glock with one in the pipe.

Pretty sure you're missing Tim's point.

Carring doesn't imply handling. The more a loaded firearm is handled, the greater propensity for discharge. I'm sure in the rough-and-tumble world of recovery, you've been involved in many a nasty gunfight, but not with a P7 as I believe it was a recent acquisition. Yet you extol the virtues of this weapon as if it had saved your life many times.

I do all of my own gun work, and have for a good many years. I understand how Glocks work. As a matter of fact I also am pretty familiar with a Kel-Tek, as I'm in the process of making a higher-leverage, shorter pull aluminum trigger for my wife's carry gun. Most of the small, striker-fired pistols have horrible triggers. That precludes accuracy. (as you well know).

You're a pretty good cut-and-paster, when it comes to firearms information on the net. Many people appreciate that. Stick to what you know.

Edit: I'd buy Bill a beer too, and take him to a match as well!

Tim, your ignorance is bewildering.

Remember when plaxico shot himself cause his glock slid down his leg when he was carrying mexican and he grabbed at it to prevent it from falling down out of his pants leg?

That won't happen with a DAO design. Takes too deliberate and long of a pull for that to occur by simply grabbing at the weapon against gravity. However, on a glock, well, Plax will tell you all about what a genius choice he made in picking that particular pistol.

Seriously, you have like exactly zero experience on the subject of carrying a firearm, and you're arguing with guys that have carried them for decades in this thread.

I carried a 3rd Gen S&W for most of my rough and tumble repo years, where i have, in fact, pulled a firearm and held criminals at gunpoint numerous times. Where i have, in fact, been felony assaulted numerous times. Where i am, in fact, out on workers comp for being ran over in a felony hit and run that would have justified me defending myself with my firearm had i had the time to draw, aim and fire it (which i didn't)

A 3rd Gen S&W has a manual and a magazine safety. Features i deliberately selected.

In the military i trained with the M9 Beretta and M1911. Both have manual safeties. The M16, M14, M21, M60, M249 and M2 i also was extensively trained on also all had safeties. Coincidence? No.

Kel Tecs (the ones we've been discussing in this thread) are not striker fired.

Stick to what you know....which is, well, i have no idea what that's supposed to be, but it's not guns if you think Kel Tec P32's and P3ATs (and the LCP) are striker fired....

You can all get pissy all you want, me picking on your glocks, but the pistols astronomical ND rate is what it is. 3.6x higher than any other modern design.

Cut and paste that amigo.

Yeah, my bad. I was actually measuring the trigger bar on the Kel-tek when I typed that.
So......my mistake on that fact.

So you are saying Bill that had Plaxico been carrying an LCP, and he pulled the trigger in his pants it would not have gone off?

Yes an LCP and my TCP have long heavy triggers.... So do Glocks.

site

No problem.

I'm saying that a LCP (or any DAO) would not have fired because the weight of the pistol combined with gravity and the length of the trigger pull would combine to make it extremely for the weapon to discharge.

So yes, that is exactly what i'm saying.

That being said, Plax is still a moron, if for no other reason than carrying a Glock mexican style (the sheer stupidity of that move alone is bewildering). But had he had a DAO sig or whatever else that night, he would not now be a limping convicted felon.

Glocks do not have long triggers. The take up slack in my LCP alone is about the same total length as the entire Glock trigger pull, and it is also nearly 2x heavier as well. And over 3x heavier if you have a target or light "combat" trigger in your Glock.(as in approx, so no need to get out the micrometer to show a glock's trigger stroke is exactly .002" more than the take up on an LCP's DAO trigger, or whatever)
If you have a heavier 8lb NY trigger in your glock it's close to as heavy as the LCP, but it lacks the long takeup and trigger stroke required to discharge the LCP or any other DA design.

You know if you had even 6 weeks (hell, 6 days) experience carrying a firearm on your person, you would not even attempt to make the argument you're making right now.

DAOs are extremely safe designs.

A DAO is perfectly safe to carry with a pocket clip either in a (otherwise empty) pocket, or in your waistband in appendix, behind the hip, or mexican style carry.

A Glock is not. It would in fact be extremely stupid to ever carry a glock without a high quality holster that completely covers the triggerguard.

HK has a trigger mechanism called a LEM, that is widely considered to be an improvement over the glock style trigger system. It stands for Law Enforcement Mod. Ever heard of it? Or shot or seen one? Know what the main difference is between a Glock trigger and a LEM? Distance of trigger travel required to cause a discharge.

I carry every day, but how often or how long I have carried has nothing to do with the fact that Glocks have relatively long stiff triggers.... not as stiff/long as the 8 pound LCP, but long enough to avoid being considered a hair trigger by any stretch of the imagination.

The 3.5 "light" trigger that comes standard in Glocks "competition" 34 model measures about 5-5.5 pounds with the stock springs, but is a slightly longer pull than the heavier triggers as it achieves it's "lightness" via a longer shallower ramp. While it is indeed shorter than the LCP trigger pull, it is fairly long.

Numnuts Plax was carrying without anything covering his trigger and if he had been carrying an LCP the same way, he may have shot himself later when he got home as he haphazardly removed his LCP and had it hang up slightly as he withdrew it with his finger on the trigger later that night.

Actually, a Glock with a light match trigger would go off from just grabbing it falling to the ground.
A standard glock trigger probably not, however, the length of trigger travel is so short that upon grabbing at it, before you realized you had it by the trigger and loosened your grip, the gun would (and did) go off.

However, on a DAO, the long trigger travel distance would be a red flashing alarm signal that you had the thing by the trigger and had better ease up your grip.

One gives warning and time to react...the other does not.

I know of someone that had an ND with a glock just reaching for it in the dark because they found the trigger first. With a DAO design, that would be impossible to do.

When i spoke to you on the phone before about your choice of glock- when you were first getting into IDPA and had no CCW, you told me that you never carry it concealed, that you only carry it under the watchful eye of range officers at IDPA events in a secure holster where safety is stressed over and over, and that if you were going to carry every day, you'd probably pick something else.

You don't remember that phone call?

Plax was an idiot for a wide variety of reasons, but two of them were for 1) carrying a glock mexican style with no holster, and 2) grabbing at a falling glock.

A glocks trigger is the easiest trigger to have an ND with of all the competing designs, which is probably why it's ND rate is more than 3x higher than any other modern pistol. The length of pull on a DAO makes them far, far less likely to have an ND with vs a Glock. The long pull gives warning, and a chance to react before you get an oops moment. On a single action, the manual safety is designed to prevent trigger movement from occurring at all.

How long you've carried for, and the circumstances under which you've carried are far from irrelevant.

If your glock ever falls to the ground guys, let it fall- don't try to grab it. Hitting the ground cannot cause it to discharge, grabbing at it, that absolutely can.

Now, I am for from an expert. I only shot two guns in my life, a .22 browning thingy and a glock 17.
But what Snipe is saying here is not what I thought when I shot the Glock in the range.
It felt very safe picking up and it did require quite some trigger pull before the shot went off. I remember very clearly pulling the trigger slowly a long way back and was waiting for the bang.
For a first time shooter, the gun made a good impression on me, but I doubt it would rank high on my shopping list. (FN and Sig would be one and two on that list. and a stainless P7, naturally :))
I'm no expert though, just offering input.

Shoot some other DAO and SA guns Geronimo, and you will see the huge difference in take up between a Glock and most other designs. Many single actions have an equally short (or even shorter) pull, however they all have a manual safety device as a backup.

BTW, there is no such thing as a stainless P7, but man, that would be nice! :D

PS: The trigger pull on a P7 is even lighter than a glock's, though the overall travel is probably a little longer on the P7. What makes that safe on the P7 is the squeeze cocker. I would never carry a P7 with a disabled or non functional squeeze cocker, that would be nuts.

Yeah yeah you know which one I mean, that silver(color) P7.

Carrying one right now. Probably the worst trigger on any handgun I've ever shot. But like with anything else about guns, it's personal preference. You are not going to convince any of these guys to carry a squeezecocker and they aren't convincing you to buy a Glock. Enough already.....(sigh)

You sure don't like your HK do you?

What model are you issued where you're at anyway?

hardchrome, I meant hardchrome..... drool drool...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1301342100.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1301342112.jpg

@Geronimo: yeah they look absolutely gorgeous in hard chrome.

And even with a marker jammed through the triggerguard- perfectly safe. ;)

You can buy glocks with light target triggers, the "standard" trigger, or a heavy "NYC" trigger. They're all factory options or standard depending on the model you buy.

Most firearms instructors say there is no such thing as an ND, they're all ND's.

If Plax had a Sig P226, he would not be in jail today.