The Rifled Musket

[Joe Bob]

The difference between a civil war and a revolution is who wins.....

[fred cook]

Jeff,

If the Williams Cleaner Cartridge didn't work, why was it's manufacture continued thru the war? As mentioned earlier, there were at least 5 different versions made so one must assume that there was at least some merit to the design/use. A friend of mine who is very much into black powder and CW reinactments actually makes his own cleaner cartridges and uses them when at the range. Usually, if something just doesn't work, it goes away and is never heard from again.

[fred cook]

Who said anything about a revolution? That is another whole discussion!!

[Joe Bob]

Because the south were also called "Rebels".....

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

Yeah, but automatic weapons created the stalemate of trench warfare. Arty killed all their collective asses and air power turned the war with the small addition of the US and the their factories.

As long as we are off topic.

Once automatic weapons became reliable (Maxim) and plentiful (Germany pre WW I) the day of successful massed infantry attacks was over. Machine guns could be deployed faster, cheaper and in more places than artillery. Artillery did rule the battlefield until late in WW II on the Western Front. It always ruled the battlefield on the Eastern Front in both world wars.

And please let us not just repeat the American myth POV that we were the dominate force in Europe in WW II. The Russians killed 4 times as many Germans than we did and faced several times the numbers of German than we ever did.

The largest European battle that the US participated in was the Battle of the Bulge. It doesn't even rank in the top 10 battles in the European theater. What the US lost in the battle over 40 days was what the Germans lost every 2 weeks on the Eastern Front.

From 1941 to 1945 Eastern Front major battles involved 50 to 100 divisions each on both sides. The entire German Army in the Western Front was often less than 20 divisions, many of them on rest and refit from the Eastern front.

The Russians had beaten the Germans after Stalingrad in early 1943. After Kursk in July of 1943, the Germans were never able to launch any large scales attacks and were in steady retreat until the end in Berlin (which the Russians did).

Russian productivity closely matched American productivity from 1942 on. The most produced tank was Russian. The most produced aircraft was Russian. The most produced artillery pieces were Russian.

[fred cook]

Yep and the northern soldiers were called "Yanks" or "Blue Bellies". So how does "REBELS" equal "Revolution"? Seems to be a non-sequeter to me.

[Joe Bob]

Ah the idjut de troll is back......stick yer revisionist crap in a sock.

I hear the Russians made a special tank for export. The French model had back up lights, 12 reverse gears and little white pop up surrender flags.....

The model was such a success, the design was incorporated into the T-72 used in the middle east by Arabic nations in the actions against Israel.....

[RWebb]

Let's go with "Rebellion"

[Joe Bob]

Rebel, Rebellion, Revolt, Revolution....

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

Ah the idjut de troll is back......stick yer revisionist crap in a sock.

I hear the Russians made a special tank for export. The French model had back up lights, 12 reverse gears and little white pop up surrender flags.....

The model was such a success, the design was incorporated into the T-72 used in the middle east by Arabic nations in the actions against Israel.....

So all you got is third grade name calling. I see you haven't any facts.

Like that was a surprise..............................

These kill figures and German order of Battle statistics are taught at West Point.

You might want to actually learn so history from a different source than the tripe you have been regurgitating.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by nynor

lol well, i've been proven to be an idiot on many fronts. looks like this is the same. thanks, jeff, for pointing this out.

whoops, actually, i think i am correct, sort of. his father:

Jonathan Browning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yup, you just kind of had your "Brownings" mixed and matched a bit. Dad was a gunsmith as well, but he never went to Europe to sell any repeaters rejected by either side in the Civil War. He was never anywhere near as successful or prolific as his son John Moses, who did in fact head to Europe with many of his designs.

I'm not entirely certain, but I think Jr's first repeating rifle for Winchester was the '86. It's vertical sliding locking block was far superior to the old toggle link '73, a derivative of the Henry. I believe John Moses also designed the '92 and '94 Winchesters. The '92 was a pistol cartridge length action meant to replace the '73, and we all know about the '94 and the introduction of smokeless in the thutty thutty. I think Chuck Connors carried a '92, but don't quote me on that.

Oh, and by the way, here is my official black powder match shooting hat:

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by fred cook

Jeff,

If the Williams Cleaner Cartridge didn't work, why was it's manufacture continued thru the war? As mentioned earlier, there were at least 5 different versions made so one must assume that there was at least some merit to the design/use. A friend of mine who is very much into black powder and CW reinactments actually makes his own cleaner cartridges and uses them when at the range. Usually, if something just doesn't work, it goes away and is never heard from again.

Both sides were desperate for anything that would shoot, the South more so than the North. There were a great many new and different designs that made it though the war, only to fall into obscurity later, their relatively short lives being the real indicator of their actual utility. This was just one of them. It could certainly be made to work, but it was far from being as effective as other designs. Pretty interesting piece of history, though, and I would certainly love to shoot one some day.

[fred cook]

battle casualties were also Russian. That's one record that I would not want to own!

[fred cook]

Yeah, but the word "Secession" just seems to roll off the tongue! Whatever you choose to call the years between 1860 and 1865, it was a bloody mess!

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I think Chuck Connors carried a '92, but don't quote me on that.

Yup!

[tabs]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

As long as we are off topic.

Once automatic weapons became reliable (Maxim) and plentiful (Germany pre WW I) the day of successful massed infantry attacks was over. Machine guns could be deployed faster, cheaper and in more places than artillery. Artillery did rule the battlefield until late in WW II on the Western Front. It always ruled the battlefield on the Eastern Front in both world wars.

And please let us not just repeat the American myth POV that we were the dominate force in Europe in WW II. The Russians killed 4 times as many Germans than we did and faced several times the numbers of German than we ever did.

The largest European battle that the US participated in was the Battle of the Bulge. It doesn't even rank in the top 10 battles in the European theater. What the US lost in the battle over 40 days was what the Germans lost every 2 weeks on the Eastern Front.

From 1941 to 1945 Eastern Front major battles involved 50 to 100 divisions each on both sides. The entire German Army in the Western Front was often less than 20 divisions, many of them on rest and refit from the Eastern front.

The Russians had beaten the Germans after Stalingrad in early 1943. After Kursk in July of 1943, the Germans were never able to launch any large scales attacks and were in steady retreat until the end in Berlin (which the Russians did).

Russian productivity closely matched American productivity from 1942 on. The most produced tank was Russian. The most produced aircraft was Russian. The most produced artillery pieces were Russian.

RPK just wants to put the Americans in their place, that they didn't win the war all by themselves. The Russian were like a Timex watch, nothing pretty but can take a lickin and keep on tickin.

The Germans were not beaten by the battle of Stalingrad...although it was a major loss on a titanic scale. As the Germans still had the where with all to conduct a major offensive operation and that was Kursk. If they had done what Manstein advocated they could have really thwarted Russian offensives. (Manstein was the General who suggested the Kursk operation, but his conception was to launch it in the EARLY spring of 1943 and NOT turn it into the extravaganza that Hitler did by delaying it until the summer of 43). That operation was what put the nails in the Germans coffin on the Eastern front, not Stalingrad.

Then one comes to the turning of the tide where shear numbers of men and material were beginning to overwhelm the Germans by the beginning of 1943. So yeah the Germans were pretty much done by that time. It just isn't quite the way RPK likes to present it though.

One can say with confidence that it was the American arsenal of Democracy that really won the war...good old American mfg...it provided the material to fight a two Theater war..

The USA did supply a lot of Trucks to the Russians and without those trucks they would have had to divert tank production to trucks...

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by tabs

RPK just wants to put the Americans in their place, that they didn't win the war all by themselves. The Russian were like a Timex watch, nothing pretty but can take a lickin and keep on tickin.

The Germans were not beaten by the battle of Stalingrad...although it was a major loss on a titanic scale. As the Germans still had the where with all to conduct a major offensive operation and that was Kursk. If they had done what Manstein advocated they could have really thwarted Russian offensives. (Manstein was the General who suggested the Kursk operation, but his conception was to launch it in the EARLY spring of 1943 and NOT turn it into the extravaganza that Hitler did by delaying it until the summer of 43). That operation was what put the nails in the Germans coffin on the Eastern front, not Stalingrad.

Then one comes to the turning of the tide where shear numbers of men and material were beginning to overwhelm the Germans by the beginning of 1943. So yeah the Germans were pretty much done by that time. It just isn't quite the way RPK likes to present it though.

One can say with confidence that it was the American arsenal of Democracy that really won the war...good old American mfg...it provided the material to fight a two Theater war..

The USA did supply a lot of Trucks to the Russians and without those trucks they would have had to divert tank production to trucks...

If we aren't restricted to Europe, but include the African and Pacific theaters, I can understand the US fighting forces of the time attaining a status RPKESQ would find mythical. We sure didn't go it alone, but nobody carried our freight.

[Jim Bremner]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

There is Jonathon Browning and John Moses Browning.....JMB was one of 19 children of JB.

JB was a Mormon gunsmith that invented the "Harmonica Gun". JMB was the auto weapons guy and was born in 1855. His stuff was used in WWI, aka the "Great War".

WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gernada, Panama, Gulf War, Desert Storm, Afganastan............

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner

WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gernada, Panama, Gulf War, Desert Storm, Afganastan............

BAR mdl 1918, mdl 1919, MA Deuce...oh and how did I almost forget the 1911...

[Joe Bob]

Amend my comment to being "first" used in WWI....picking nits here.....