Air Freight vs. Passengers

[red-beard]

I was leaving the airport over the weekend and saw the fleet of one of the freight majors: DC-10s.

In an article in the WSJ today, it seems all of the passenger airlines are tripping over themselves to get the latest aircraft to reduce fuel consumption, etc. Why is it that the freight companies can continue flying the old stuff? Is fuel consumption not as much of an issue? Is the cost easier to pass on? Or did they buy up a specific aircraft and have TONS of spares for that?

Or is it that the passengers want to fly in newer planes?

[exc911ence]

The revenue generated by freight is many times that made by moving people. Folks seem to be willing to pay whatever it takes to ship a parcel, but seriously cheap out when it comes time to move themselves long distances by air.

[Rick Lee]

Between my luggage and myself I probably added 300 lbs. to the flight to China from Phoenix via LAX. That was $879 roundtrip with a few meals and plenty of wine included, no baggage fees. I wonder what it would cost to ship 300 lbs. via air mail to China and then back to Phoenix.

[Aurel]

Freight can't sue airlines, passengers can. So there must be an insurance premium built into that, and the need to have more reliable airplanes. Just my uneducated guess...

[9dreizig]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Between my luggage and myself I probably added 300 lbs. to the flight to China from Phoenix via LAX. That was $879 roundtrip with a few meals and plenty of wine included, no baggage fees. I wonder what it would cost to ship 300 lbs. via air mail to China and then back to Phoenix.

Freight would probably be double that.. not to mention it would just sit there and keep it's thoughts to it's self..

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Cargo flying is the best. No PITA pax! Boxes don't complain!

[cairns]

Read the same article. Scary. Other than Emirates a lot of the recent sales seem awfully tenuous. What happens to AMR will be telling I think.

[johnsjmc]

Also most freighters are flying near full. There is a warehouse at each airport which allows the stuff to collect then load a plane and go. Lots of passenger flights fly part empty just to meet the required schedule.

[widgeon13]

Freight doesn't eat, ****, require flight attendants or worry about ramp delays among other things.

[krystar]

the real question is would it be easier and more economical to ship yourself in a life support container pod. aka tech-coffin. statis field module preferred.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Or is it that the passengers want to fly in newer planes?

Probably the last point, several hundred people crammed into a small space makes the planes feel old and grungy really fast.

[BE911SC]

When an old freighter crashes no one really cares. If a passenger airline crashes an older airplane then they are criticized for flying old airplanes. American's bankruptcy mentions the "gas guzzling" MD-80 fleet that has been helping to drain away American's hopes of profitability, an example of negative press regarding old fleets. But yeah, the cost/profit margins are much tighter in the passenger business. As stated above, people think little to nothing to ship a box halfway around the world but will nickel and dime an airline when they shop for tickets.

[Jrboulder]

Quote de red-beard

Or is it that the passengers want to fly in newer planes?

Probably the last point, several hundred people crammed into a small space makes the planes feel old and grungy really fast.

I think they overhaul the interiors every few years.

Also, I doubt 99% of the travelers could tell the difference between a 737-300 and a 737-700. As long as it's a shiny blue livery and leather seats on the inside it doesn't matter if the AF was built in 1981 or 2011 or if the TTAF is 100,000 hours or 100 hours.

[air-cool-me]

my best guess:

boxes dont care!

Older jets have higher operating costs but much lower capital costs. Economics favor older jets if the aircraft have lots of hours of down time. If you don't have scheduled service a brand new shinny aircraft it is a big risk! (wonder what the lease payments are on a 230million$ 777 vs a $30million md-11) Even if you have enough cargo you need the logistical support to continue to feed it in the long term.

Also 1 extra hour trouble shooting is scary for a passenger but normal for a non scheduled freight operator.

noise regs, ext.

as fuel costs and load requirements change.. I bet its difficult to find the "sweet spot"
big package guys have a mixed fleet of new and old to get the best of both worlds.

[svandamme]

In Europe, PAX airports are historically near cities, cities want quiet planes
Freight often goes to regional airports away from people who can complain about noise

[daepp]

I cant remember the last time I flew on a flight that wasn't 100% full!

[fingpilot]

Exactly. Flights are very carefully overbooked so as to be full.

'Old DC-9/MD-80 fleet'..... that fleet has paid for itself 10 times over. If AMR wasn't making money with an airplane, it was gone. The MD-series planes are as reliable as it gets. They do EXACTLY what they were designed to do. Work day in and day out. I always chuckle when I see that 'ancient' line. The cost of financing a newer plane would carry a well maintained MD-8X for a year of maintenance.

Freighters are full because they are busy. Not much airfreight sits in dispatch warehouses very long anymore. Those 'older' freighters are flying for the same reason the 'older' MD's are flying.

They are paid for. No need for shiny and new. Paid for goes a long way to the bottom line.

[fingpilot]

You know, after I hit the 'send', I had an interesting call from a senior Captain at AMR.

He said what I had been thinking after 'reading between the lines' about the Chapter 11.

AMR didn't file because they are broke and getting broker. They filed to take advantage (the same advantage as the other majors have taken) of the protection and 'reorganization' capabilities of Chapter 11. It's a revised business plan.... AMR was the only major not to have gone this route. He was saddened that some of the 'givebacks' the pilots have conceded to over the years past have failed. By failed, he meant that the 'givebacks' will not have to be repaid. I have no doubt those giveback repays will be in the next contract in some form.

But he was saying it is simply AMR using the same tactics (a 'new' business plan that includes setting aside contractual obligations) as their competition.

Wave of the future, I suspect.

[Joeaksa]

Above post is spot on. As well AA now gets to revamp all their union contracts...

[cairns]

American has been negotiating since 2006 with its major unions representing pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and baggage handlers, but the talks stalled this month when the pilots union refused to allow the rank and file to vote on a management proposal for a 3.2% pay raise followed by 1% annual increases. The pilots demanded 10% upfront and 7% for each of the next three years, among other la dolce vita demands.

American's wages, benefits, work rules and pensions are the most costly in the industry, a disadvantage that it puts at $800 million compared to its peers. The company is the last major U.S. legacy carrier to file for Chapter 11, which has allowed its profitable competitors like United and Delta to rationalize their labor obligations and extract union concessions. Perhaps those unions understood that sooner or later one of these airlines won't muddle through but instead go into Chapter 7 liquidation. The wonder is that it takes a strategic bankruptcy to underline this reality.

American has been losing money since 2008 and negotiating since 2006. If the unions were reasonable a strategic bankruptcy wouldn't have been necessary.

My sympathies aren't with the pilots. I got a 2% raise last year. And consider myself lucky to have a job. US job losses are over 400,000 last month- again- and God knows how long this has been happening. Turning down 3.2% and demanding 7%???? Somebody needs to get real. I'd be escorted out the door if I tried that. And so would everyone else. Your friend forgets that graveyards are full of indispensable people.