This is a topic all to often touched on amongst my friends and family. I am/was a furniture designer manufacturer that once had 2 employees and a 3000sqf shop busy as a hive. Work was steady for eight years built on an entirely word of mouth foundation. Then imported furniture and cabinetry started pouring into the country and business started to get more competitive. When prices for an entire new kitchen cabinet package from china reached 7-10K (3yrs ago) I was done. I could not even purchase materials, get them to the shop, turn the lights on and maintain one days wage for one employee to start processing materials for $7000.00. Compounding factor being that I was trying to operate a small business in California which is futile depending on the industry one is involved in. I rode the ship down with my two loyal guys until I was out of options and then cut them loose after lowering wages to 18.00 and hour from 32.50. Both guys were considered journeyman and were highly skilled not to mention loyal. I felt like a total failure and cursed myself for a year after going out of business but got past it and moved on. A very hard lesson about market competition to learn indeed. The custom furniture portion of the business was the fun part of the biz but wasn't enough to make it worth while especially when it slowed way down.

I'm currently partnered up with a fellow tradesman doing design build projects and some furniture once in a while- What a racket. People expect Quality at low cost in an ever shortening time frame.

I hate everything about it now. One upon a time I could not sleep because I was excited about the next day and now I have to drag myself through everyday and can't sleep because I'm so stressed about making a buck.

Headed back to school to make a major life change-

A new year ahead indeed, stay away from the trades unless you are a plumber cause 85.00 an hour is not bad for a journeyman in the trades

Owner/operator plumbers are making a killing because of the rates charged for a man, supplied truck and tools working out of a big shop. Those plumbers are making less than 20/hr. Same with electricians. Same with welders. If you don't charge that, you go out of business.

But, as I said, take a maverick and he will go out and get shop rates.

You know, I should quit pissing about low wages for skilled workers. I did my time and made pretty good money over the years. I'm 66 and about done with it all, so I guess I shouldn't really give a rat's ass.

Note for New Year's resolution: don't give a rat's ass.

A friend drives a pilot truck for rigs. They pay him $28 hr to sit in a 1/2 ton for up to 14 hrs a day. (1.5 X hr after 8) $30 a day for meals, company CC to fuel up or rent a hotel room and $100 a day cash just to show up for work. Who needs a trade :)

I did have a little talk with a neighbor that just had his bath remodeled. Everything had to be done over as they went along. He would come home and the shower head would be off center.

"Well, there was a stud there." And so on. Tile ripped out and redone. The guy just wanted what we normally would expect. I don't think he's a perfectionist. That's all there is out there anymore. Idiots.

So, I guess we pay idiot wages.

I'm just kinda sorry no one asked me to pass on 40 years of learning.

The real crime here is that someone in your country is willing to hire them! Customers of the company were able to accept the illegals for a lower completed project price, Another crime.
Better trade certification requirements would perhaps help look after that.

I had mentioned in another thread that the insulators union here had lost a signed contract for one of the oilsands plants in Alberta. They hired it out to foreign workers.
A form of class warfare someone had mentioned in that thread.

Not real animosity, Milt, but I've taken jobs at less pay than I made before just to get my foot in the door of an outfit that showed promise. Life is a competition and money is a way of keeping score. If I can compete and keep my integrity intact I'll hang pretty tough at any company.....of course I'm retired now and don't have to do squat.:D

Manufacturing is hurting now days. The politicians & the MBAs have sold this country's wealth creation down the river. If we ( or our kids) want to change that
whining is not the way to do it.......it requires hard physical labor for not as much money as we made. That is neither right nor traditional but that's the way it is. Our kids have to rebuild the country..... if they have the stomach & smarts for it.

You know why there is an ad, Zeke? Because he can't find anyone with those skills to work for that pay. If it were a good job situation with good pay, he should be able to fill that position thru word of mouth. I heard from a friend that there is a nationwide shortage of journeyman pipe welders and pipefitters. Opportunities and wages are very good right now, according to him.

Kids these days know how to Twitter to select targeted social groups while parachuting....but they couldn't program the gizmo or even change a light switch.

Schools don't have shop class anymore, but someone will need to know how to fix the dang thing.
Mabye they should make changing your own oil a prerequisit to HS graduation.

People are surprised by how much I make per hour. But, they don't realize that I need a full sized pickup truck and spend about $3000/yr on tools and $80/wk on gas with no health insurance or paid holidays or vacations. And 4 yrs ago arrived on the jobsight and $4500 worth of tools were stolen. Fortunatelly, I had then insured. But, what a PIA it was.

That's a real good thought. Bottom fishing.

You know, I hadn't given much thought to it. I'm sure you're right.

Probably goes through a welder a month.

I don't all of a sudden feel a lot better about this, but your point is well taken.


I have given a brief thought about doing a little writing. I ought to go over to this shop and dig up the story.

I know a number of folks making very good money working trades, particularly those that are self employed. But it takes more than quality work, you have to also be courteous, professional, and prompt. Otherwise you're just one of the many. My contractor father in law has a 6+ month backlog because he is honest and the best in the area, but definitely not the cheapest. All new business is word of mouth, he doesn't spend a dime on advertising. He does everything from additions to custom cabinets, and does fantastic work.

I'd much rather send my son to a tech school to be a plumber and start work at $20/hr then spend $60k for a general business degree and a $12/hr assistant manager job at Target.

Good tradesmen are worth their weight in gold. Particularly Welders / fabricators, Electricians, HVAC guys and even a few plumbers.

Take a guy that is driven to reliable excellence couple that with
people that understand basic business skills, I have seen some very nice local empires built over 20 years. with 20 + man shops that were able scale quickly to booms and busts. The GC's they have done business with don't even send stuff out to quote many times. It's a captive market if the service is consistent.

The key is that they always understood that they were in business and needed to keep the energy and that "Pigs Get Fat and Hog's Get Slaughtered".

I have seen many good hands burn out and become bitter. Because they forgot they were in business for themselves. They focus on $ per hour and not the big picture.

It pains me to see this because the trade is harder to learn than the business side of it.

Several jobs I have going are subject to prevailing wage rates (they vary a bit from job to job) but a welder goes for at least $30-$35 (and after all the burden and markups costs us about $55 or so).

Where was this ad? Craigslist? I wouldn't put any stake at all in job postings on there - it's 99% low-bid fishing BS. I know for a fact that HR folks will "test the floor" by asking for applicants to "include salary requirements" or post positions offering $X to see if anyone actually bites. No real position/job, it's just data mining and helping to establish salary ranges.

No you shouldn't!!!
Being in the trades myself and paying my dues, rising to the top of the heap and investing a large part of my life to what I used to call my career has come down to being the recipient of lower wages and having to cut my budget to the quick all for no fault of my own.
I got out of plumbing to become a technician and I wish I had never done either.
It is going to be a very bad time very fast because the kids coming up behind me are not going to do the trades. Too much to invest with no return. I have already taken the first steps towards leaving the auto industry, and when I take my final step out of it, I won't even bother flipping it off.
People who don't work in the trades will NEVER fully understand what it means to work with your hands and take the pride in the final product and the actual blood it requires to have that life......

Its the people in the higher up (and down) that are making a cluster Fook of thing in our schools. Every idiot is going to university. I use to be a part time wood shop and architecture teacher. All the shops had been taken out. A few years ago, I got talking with one of these higher ups and mention how important to have an introduction of automotive mechanic to high school students. I try to make a point by saying if you think about how many cars are stuck in our freeways daily in LA, someone has to fix them when they break. There are lots of entry level jobs for our young grads. His reply was, we don't train blue collar workers. Everyone can learn and we must prepare them for college. This is not a young man talking. This guy is in his late 50s.

I had a young 26 year old English teacher with a Master degree complain to me once. he could not believe some people who are digging in the streets or in the building trades making over 25-30 bucks an hour, same as he, and they have no college degree. I ask how much should they make? He said 12-14 bucks an hour. Anything close to $20 is reserve for us intellectuals. This crap is where it starts. People just aren't willing to pay for anything with quality anymore. Yet, these are the very same people that complain about service and quality is a thing of the past in America. I love it when they ask how much do you charge an hour? I wouldn't tell them anymore. Its time to walk because I will never get any work from them and they would pay it.

This is the same guy who more than likely believes Jiffy Lube can solve every issue with his car and has no clue why it is SRO in my driveway at $110 an hour.

Someone posted this here a few months ago. It really struck a chord with me. It is most appropriate for this thread.

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I think the outlook for trades is improving.
As wages go up in China, manufacturing work will return to the U.S.
Manufacturers will not be able to find enough skilled trades since most companies effectively discontinued their apprenticeship programs 20 years ago and the old timers are mostly retired by now.

This resonates with me. Everyone expects a 6-figure salary, yet nobody wants to pay for things. Its bizarre.

If its worth having, its worth paying for (home repairs, software, music, whatever). If you are truly not willing to pay what it takes, move on - it's not worth it to you, or you can't afford it.

I've probably paid too much here and there, but I'm done looking for the very cheapest - we need to get used to paying for things done right, or just moving on. I think we'd all be better off. I'm pretty conservative, but I also believe this is such a thing as a living wage.

Our Local 1 "A" Plumbers make $51 p/hr plus another $60 p/hr in benefits. "B" plumbers make $32 p/hr plus anothe $22 in benefits.

A Plumber Welder makes the same as an "A" man plus at least a $150 expense check. Plumber welders are never out of work.

We do a fair amount of large high pressure gas and at times have trouble getting a welder for a project.