"Right to repair" bill proposed

[john70t]

New vehicles are becoming more electronically-complex, and it's becoming more difficult for for shops and shadytree mechanics to fix them.
I had a friend trying to fix a frozen top on a convertable BMW, and the thing had something like three different body computers to control the complex open/close functions. Forget about a Prius.

Deal may be brewing on Massachusetts automobile repair legislation | masslive.com
The legislation is being proposed in Massacusettes, but could be a national one.

Independant repair shops say it is necessary for their services to continue, while manufacturers say it forces giving away proprietary information and trade secrets to the aftermarket manufacturers.

[Zeke]

No, I think auto manufacturers should step back and focus on what we want, transportation, not a mobile entertainment center. Maybe some fun at the wheel.

Meaning, simplify the automobile. I'll have more to say on this thread.

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by john70t

Independant repair shops say it is necessary for their services to continue, while manufacturers say it forces giving away proprietary information and trade secrets to the aftermarket manufacturers.

Imagine Boeing & Scarebus using that arguement.

[john70t]

Which arguement JP?

I'd suppose the extremes of the subject would be an industry service monopoly vs. a companies right to control their product.

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by Zeke

No, I think auto manufacturers should step back and focus on what we want, transportation, not a mobile entertainment center. Maybe some fun at the wheel.

Meaning, simplify the automobile. I'll have more to say on this thread.

I drive a 12 year old benz e-class. The car is getting a bit tired, so I took a 2006 e class wagon out for a spin. Biggest disapointment for me is that it is overladen with complex, intrusive technology. Sure, they are cool gizmos now, but what about when the car is 10-15 years old and the technology is obsolete? The S class is even worse, and I'd think with the S class there'd be a significant portion of buyers who would intend to buy it and own it for the rest of their lives. Wouldn't it make sense to offer a lower-tech, pared down version?

[onewhippedpuppy]

At what point is it a monopoly? Modern cars are incredibly complex with proprietary computer systems, just the diagnostic computers are thousands of dollars. Many modern systems require connection of the diagnostic computer to reset the system after the replacement of a component or an adjustment. Run all of the lower priced independent shops out of business and the already overpriced dealerships can charge whatever they want. It's a very valid concern, at least for buyers of new cars. Sometimes I'm ok with my old Land Rover with its OHV Buick V8, and at times think I may always own a car from this era. DIY with a modern car just isn't possible.

[Hugh R]

Look at my Carrera, it has a DME brain, it isn't going to be a classic in 50 years. My old Aston Martin DB4 had plugs, points, rotor, coil and condenser, you could fix it 100 years from now. It didn't have one chip, diode, transistor, in it. It did have a few coil-wound relays.

[legion]

And don't get me started on lead-free solder that essentially limits the life of all electronics...

[Macroni]

This is not just a problem facing the auto industry. The issues of technology evolution and service monopoly is also a major problem in the manufacturing industry. Recently we had to rebuild an operating system that was built in 1995 using a Pentium 2 computer. The manufactures solution was an $80,000 replacement combination software and hardware. It was frustrating.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by Macroni

This is not just a problem facing the auto industry. The issues of technology evolution and service monopoly is also a major problem in the manufacturing industry. Recently we had to rebuild an operating system that was built in 1995 using a Pentium 2 computer. The manufactures solution was an $80,000 replacement combination software and hardware. It was frustrating.

In '95 we just had pentiums... perhaps pentium pro?

That said, while he rambles, picks his feet during interviews, and is near militant about it, you may want to read up (or watch up - but beware the toe jam eating) on Richard M Stallman and the Free Software movement... All the same concept, but with autos, etc. being affected it is no longer just socially inept computer geeks ....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/21/right_to_repair_win/

http://oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch07.html

[Hawktel]

I don't know why people don't look at simple options like these:

Chevrolet : Suburban Chevrolet : Suburban | eBay

Mercury : Meteor Mercury : Meteor | eBay

MG : MGB MG : MGB | eBay

Plymouth : Fury Plymouth : Fury | eBay

Each one is between 10-20 grand. Only a fool would buy these rides without a PPI, but who buys a ride without a PPI anyway? I really think that something like these could work out for people, and you can't tell me one of those wouldn't be a better than a run of the mill Yaris, or Malibu.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Look at my Carrera, it has a DME brain, it isn't going to be a classic in 50 years. My old Aston Martin DB4 had plugs, points, rotor, coil and condenser, you could fix it 100 years from now. It didn't have one chip, diode, transistor, in it. It did have a few coil-wound relays.

That's simple by modern standards Hugh, rebuilding a DME is probably an easy task to the right person.

Originally Posted by Hawktel

I don't know why people don't look at simple options like these:

Chevrolet : Suburban Chevrolet : Suburban | eBay

Mercury : Meteor Mercury : Meteor | eBay

MG : MGB MG : MGB | eBay

Plymouth : Fury Plymouth : Fury | eBay

Each one is between 10-20 grand. Only a fool would buy these rides without a PPI, but who buys a ride without a PPI anyway? I really think that something like these could work out for people, and you can't tell me one of those wouldn't be a better than a run of the mill Yaris, or Malibu.

You're killin' me Smalls! I've been entertaining the idea of buying an old school Suburban, don't humor me.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Look at my Carrera, it has a DME brain, it isn't going to be a classic in 50 years. My old Aston Martin DB4 had plugs, points, rotor, coil and condenser, you could fix it 100 years from now. It didn't have one chip, diode, transistor, in it. It did have a few coil-wound relays.

Yep.

This is precisely why I'll keep my '74 Targa until I die, then will it to my son. I love the sheer simplicity of it. The most complicated electronic circuitry in it is the CDI (not that complicated at all).

My 944s have DMEs but they're simple enough to diagnose myself if I need to. When it comes to electronic doohickeys in cars, it's a lot like plastic - "less is more". Give me a METAL car with leather/cloth/metal interior, no electronics, no radio and an open road and I'll smile all day long - far more so than plodding along in traffic in a modern $70,000 gizmo-barge with 150+ fuses and enough wiring to reach from NYC to London.

Yes, modern cars can do some cool things, but I GREATLY prefer the raw, viceral, "real" sense of actually driving and making the machinery an extension of myself. It's much like riding a motorcycle or flying an airplane. When that sensation gets masked by layers and layers of stability controls, ABS, automated this-and-that, adapative everything - it just loses something and becomes no different and little more exciting than sitting at a computer terminal.

It's nice to perform a task that actually requires SKILL to perform. No skill required = no satisfaction.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Chevrolet : Suburban Chevrolet : Suburban | eBay

This would be a good starting point for a cool project.

[Rot 911]

BMW is getting to be one of the worst with keeping secret repair diagnostics. On the newer cars even the techs at the dealerships don't have the code descriptions for some of the repairs. They plug in the diagnostic equipment and then have to communicate with higher headquarters to be told what to fix. For example, on my 2006 330i I would key a yellow steering wheel symbol with a key and lock symbol next to it. Turns out the electronic locking sensor was bad. Problem was this would prevent you from even being able to start the car. The fix? Change out the steering column!

When the BMW went out of warranty and I started getting more electronic problems I sold the car.

[yetibone]

I don't see that there's any problem with the availability of repair info, or proprietary software / hardware here in NC. The problem is prohibitive pricing of all the tooling, programming software, and support.

Ford VCM for the IDS programming and diagnostic software:
Rotunda VCM

Ford IDS diagnostic and programming software:
Rotunda IDS

GM Tech 2 is available from OTC now and on sale in many places for as little as $3700.

Chrysler Corp DRBIII scan tool, and comm relay for Benchtop Programmer is around $6500.

VAGCOM/RossTech software for VW and Audi was about $2900 if I remember correctly..

Bosch Mastertech will cover Japanese cars for $5000.

Gscan will cover Korean, and everything else...I believe we got ours for $3000 or so.

Then, there's TPMS systems: Bartech 300SD, $650

That's something like $30,000 worth of stuff that I need for diagnostics that will be obsolete in a few short years, and competent diagnostics can't be done without them anymore.

I recently had a Chevy Colorado in the shop with a left turn signal problem after an aftermarket stereo install. The switched power for the radio was taken from the main power lead to the BCM, which controls the blink, and direction of the signals. Voltage drop on the BCM B+ lead crashed the BCM causing the left turn signal to blink fast all the time. The fix was to relocate the radio switched power wire to a stable source, R&I a BCM, then program the BCM.

I needed a $3500+ factory level scan tool to fix a turn signal, with little or no alternative, and that's where the industry is headed. The manufacturers will sell you anything that you need to fix their products if you can afford the price.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by john70t

I'd suppose the extremes of the subject would be an industry service monopoly vs. a companies right to control their product.

I don't want to parf this, but the current political climate is so blindly anti-government intrusion that an industry service monopoly with resulting higher prices and poorer service is the likely outcome.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by yetibone

I don't see that there's any problem with the availability of repair info, or proprietary software / hardware here in NC. The problem is prohibitive pricing of all the tooling, programming software, and support.

I needed a $3500+ factory level scan tool to fix a turn signal, with little or no alternative, and that's where the industry is headed. The manufacturers will sell you anything that you need to fix their products if you can afford the price.

Wow!

It makes me happy I have my 80s model cars. I spent some time figuring out a cable to connect the ALDL to my laptop on my El Camino. I can capture what the sensors are seeing and what the engine is doing. I still have to send that data to a company to modify my software. It would cost me 600 bucks to get all the stuff to program my own chips. I can't imagine how any hobbyist can do that with a modern car and all the systems it need do be drivable.

[RANDY P]

Yep, it's a game to eliminate the indy shops. They used R&D side of the biz to make everything proprietary.

Having a new car is like living in a fancy hotel- everything is taken care of while the warranty is in place, you pay for that piece of mind.

New cars today also are subjectively nice in the sense they are quiet, and more powerful then before. It is true that they market cars these days the same way they market computers, with electronic garbage instead of longevity and power.

I dunno about the rest of you but I've got the regressive thing goin on- switching out my fleet to old cars so I can rebuild them at will.... My newest rig shortly will be a 96

rjp

[Fishman7]

I'm on board with the rest of you, my new/old ride a 72 Burb........I can fix anything that is needed.