Who believes in "lifetime" transmission fluid?

[Rick Lee]

My wife's 328i's factory maint. and repair warranties are expiring this month. She has about 31k miles on the car and so I called the stealer to see if a (auto) transmission fluid change would be covered by the free maint. warranty. They gave me the same "lifetime fluid" BS schpiel we got with her Mini that started making noise at around 68k miles. I've heard that, if you plan to keep the car, you should flush the ATF every 30k miles or not at all. At 68k miles the fluid that came out of her Mini was black sludge and a few qts. low. Stealer said they had to flush it three time to make it look clean and, as a "goodwill gesture," decided not to charge us a dime for it. We traded it in soon thereafter.

Anyway, she has an extended repair warranty on the car that kicks in after the factory one runs out, but that's only for repairs and I wonder if a tranny repair would be covered if it had never been serviced for XX years and miles. Stealer wants $974 for tranny service, which is out of the question. Should I DIY this, price it out with an indy shop or let sleeping dogs lie? Let's assume she plans to keep the car forever.

[widebody911]

My '02 M3 MT had "lifetime" fluid, but I changed it @ ~60k - it was absolutely nasty. Trans shifter better afterwards, too.

I read that it's a ploy to artificially lower the maintenance cost of the vehicle.

[dhoward]

I only use pure sperm whale oil in my transmissions.

[Rot 911]

BMW and Mini both claim the automatic transmission fluid is "lifetime." Owners indicate otherwise. My advice, change it every 30K miles or sell the car before you get to 100K. Lots of people will tell you their BMW automatic has lasted much longer than 100K, but there are enough saying they have had problems at the 100K mark to make me a believer in changing out the fluid.

[M.D. Holloway]

Its a good idea to change fluid.

The only thing that is forever is nothing...

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by widebody911

My '02 M3 MT had "lifetime" fluid, but I changed it @ ~60k - it was absolutely nasty. Trans shifter better afterwards, too.

I read that it's a ploy to artificially lower the maintenance cost of the vehicle.

MT means "manual trans.," correct? If this were manual, it'd be a cinch. But auto trans BMW's are a bit of a project to change and I've heard stories about not being able to use anything but the factory-recommended (read stupid expensive) ATF without creating bigger problems that then would not be covered by any warranty.

[RANDY P]

I did mine at 80K - 2002 E39 with the expensive electronic no service tranny.

It was about time. They all crap somewhere after 120K from what I've seen.

[racer]

I imagine to many, "lifetime" means the length of the lease


Read the fine print of the extended warranty to know what it covers on transmissions.

[flipper35]

It will last the lifetime of the transmission, which may not be many years without changing the fluid.

[M.D. Holloway]

Many transmissions and engines can quickly become contaminated with water, particulate and various deposits such as varnish and sludge that are the products of oil oxidation. These contaminants contribute to the degradation of the oil and increase operating temperature, energy demand, component wear and oil usage. Even new systems can often contain contaminants that contribute to these problems. I just gave a seminar on this to 23 of our managers from China!

Deposits develop when the lubricant breaks down into other compounds. By understanding this process, certain measures can be taken to slow down the formation of deposits. Lubricants can breakdown and create sludge, varnish and deposits due to several reasons:

• Inferior Base Oil - When the base oil contains one or more of the following; light fractions, sulfur, low molecular weight hydrocarbons.
  
• Insufficient Concentration of Performance Additives - Low concentrations of anti-wear agents and/or friction modifiers produce wear metals and localized frictional heat. Low concentrations of demulsifiers can lead to emulsified oil, which hastens oil oxidation.
  
• Yellow Metals (copper, brass, bronze) found in many componants - Contaminants from external or internal sources can catalyze oil oxidation and lead to deposits and additive depletion.
  
• Heat - High ambient temperatures, operational heat (from kinetic energy or combustion), frictional heat (from metal to metal contact), pressure (from aeration and/or operation) can accelerate oil oxidation and additive depletion.
  
• Water - By-products of combustion and/or external contaminants can hasten oil oxidation and lead to deposits, additive depletion.
  
• Acids - Develops when base oil breaks down into reactive species, produces sludge, varnish and/or other deposits, or external source such as acid washing. Common forms are sulfuric acid, nitric acid and various carboxylic acids.

When lubricants oxidize, they form reactive materials that can re-constitute into different deposits. The following are several of the typical deposits that are formed and the problems that can occur when lubricating oil breaks down.

Varnish: Found on bearings, cylinders, pistons, gears, vanes, pumps, and turbines. Oil or fuel oxidizes forming a gummy substance that develops into a coating with highly crosslinked molecules that are insoluble in oil. Varnish coating can lead to uneven gear wear due to unbalancing, increased drag/energy demand and increased temperatures due to lack of lubrication on metal surface, oil viscosity increase.

Lacquer: Found on bearings, cylinders, pistons, gears, vanes, pumps, and turbines. When varnish is exposed to excessive temperatures and pressure, it becomes baked on and ironed out forming lacquer. Lacquer, like varnish can lead to uneven gear wear, increased drag/energy demand and increased temperatures due to lack of lubrication on metal surface. Lacquer is exceptionally difficult to remove.

Sludge:Found in oil pans, sumps, housings, reservoirs, and bearings. Formation begins when contaminants begin to settle out of the oil. Sludge develops with excessive accumulation of contaminants leading to additive depletion and oxidation. Sludge is composed of water, carbon residue, oxidized oil, and acidic compounds which can lead to further oil decomposition. Sludge can restrict oil flow leading to increase system pressure, temperature, wear, and oil viscosity increase.

Gum: Typically found in the crankcase or combustion area of an engine. Gum develops when oil or fuel hydrocarbons breakdown due to high temperature and combustion by-products. Gum acts as a binder for contaminates to adhere to pistons, rings, and valves. Gum can form on valves, pistons, rings, ring grooves and on the cylinder walls causing contaminates and residue to adhere and restrict lubrication. Lack of lubrication increases friction and wear and restricts the heat transfer function of lubricating oil.

Carbon Deposits: Found in all lubricated systems such as engines, bearings, pumps, gears, and journals. Most common form is soot, can also be tar-like residue. Soot is considered to be an advanced deposit formation. As carbon deposits form, additional contaminates adhere facilitating continued oil oxidation. The deposits can form a slurry or gelled mass. The deposits restrict lubrication flow and additive functionality.

Various deposits such as varnish, lacquer, gum and sludge are basically the result of oxidized oil and are all carbon-based materials. These materials are typically large in molecular size compared to other compounds found in lubricants save the base oil. Two methods; step polymerization and chain polymerization generally synthesize large molecules. Step polymerizations proceed by a stepwise reaction between chemically functional reactant molecules. The size of the molecule increases at a relatively slow rate.

One reactive molecule combines with a second, they form a single reactive molecule, which then reacts with a third and so on until eventually large polymer molecules have been formed. Chain polymerizations require an initiator in the form of a free radical or another reactive specie. Free radicals and reactive species (anions or cations) can be generated by many of the conditions found in gearboxes, transmissions, hydraulic systems or engines. Chain polymerizations occur by the propagation of the reactive molecule by successive additions of large numbers of other reactive molecules.

There are several reasons why deposits form in a lubricating system. Typically, the oil undergoes a transformation from one molecular structure to another. This can be in the form of a mixture of a contaminant such as fuel soot with motor oil, or transmission sludge from debris and gear oil. It can also be varnish or lacquer on a piston pump cylinder from excessive temperature and load. More often it is the breaking down of the base oil and the building up of a new compound. This re-constitution develops through a series of steps. The first step is the generation of a reactive compound or free radicals. There are several ways in which these compounds develop. Once in the system, they combine or polymerize into new compounds in the form of deposits. Various environmental conditions can facilitate the generation such as temperature, pressure, water, solvents, acids, caustics and various metals.

Free radicals can develop by a few different methods. One is through mechanical energy such as milling, pressure, and high pressure combined with shearing deformation, or shock waves through a non-thermal process. Another way is from acids that cleave the molecular bonds. A high concentration of short or moderate chain-length molecules of the oil can break creating a higher population of free radicals. These short reactive species readily bond with other like species or contaminants and polymerize into deposits. A long chain-length oil molecule will produce less reactive species due to bond length and restricted molecular mobility. Excessive heat and pressure can also break the molecular bond and form free radicals that in turn will polymerize into deposits.

There are countless molecular arrangements that make up deposits in any given system. Deposits are typically the result of the base oil breaking down into a reactive compound. Once the reactive compound is developed, it re-constitutes by reacting with another reactive compound forming a deposit. The typical reaction is considered a free radical chain polymerization. The reaction occurs in three steps:
1) Initiation; free radical chain polymerization is a type of polymerization in which the propagating species is a long chain free radical, usually initiated by the attack of other free radicals, acids or reactive species that are derived from heat, water, acids, contaminants, etc.
2) Propagation; the polymerization proceeds by the chain reaction addition of reactive molecules to the free radical ends of growing chain molecules.
3) Termination; finally two propagating species (growing free radicals) combine (disproportionate) to end the polymerization reaction and form one or more polymer molecules in the form of a deposit (sludge, varnish, lacquer, etc).
The rate at which the reaction takes place actually accelerates with time (and heat). It would be natural to assume that the reaction rate would slow down with time since the concentrations of reactive molecules and initiators reduce as they are reacting. The exact opposite is true.

Three routes also known as diffusion-controlled termination steps explain this behavior. The first route is a translational diffusion of two of the propagating radicals until they are in close proximity to each other. The second route is the segmental diffusion of the polymer chains. In this route, the rearrangement of the two chains occurs so that the two radical ends are close enough to react with each other. The third route is the actual chemical reaction of the two radical ends to form the polymer or in this case the deposit. During the course of the reaction, the translational diffusion route decreases faster than the increase rate of the segmental diffusion route. This is how rapid autoacceleration occurs. The actual kinetics of the reaction are quite complicated.

Due to the speed at which the deposits can develop, it is very important to act quickly when a system shows signs of early contamination. Free radical chain polymerizations can occur very quickly. If the onset of oil oxidation or the free radical polymerization of the reactive species is not quickly addressed, very serious problems can occur.

[red-beard]

I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the cute man-friendly lesbian either...

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by racer

I imagine to many, "lifetime" means the length of the lease


Read the fine print of the extended warranty to know what it covers on transmissions.

Since the extended warranty was sold by the stealer and thrown in as part of the deal, I'm pretty sure they'd make it work for us if the tranny had problems when we didn't touch it. I wonder if BMW would goodwill it if we didn't touch the fluid, kept the car and then at 100k miles had tranny problems. I mean, it's lifetime, right?

[dennis in se pa]

Anyone who has been around awhile should know to change every fluid on a regular basis. I change the rear end fluid along with the trans fluid. Cheap insurance.

I am sure most people don't change these fluids ever then wonder why they have problems.

I feel sorry for all of the mechanical things those people ever own. There must a special place in heaven for them.

[RANDY P]

It's a supreme PITA on that car. No dipstick, fluid is expensive as hell (Some weird ESSO fluid), gotta use some weird technique to put the fluid in, get the tranny to operating temp, etc. etc. etc.

I paid right about $400 to have mine done. No guarantees it will live either. Those trannys are a curse. I dumped my 530 right at 100K for fear of when it's gonna puke -( in keeping with my tradition of losing as much $$$ as possible.)

The Mercedes guys have an inexpensive shop for their rebuilds, I wonder if anyone has figured out the BMW yet?

rjp

[McLovin]

"Lifetime" trans fluid is absolute BS, period.

Your 328i has a GM automatic transmission. Runs from the factory regular GM Dexron VI trans fluid. (The late 3 series like your used either ZF or GM autoboxes, depending on the year and model. 328i was the GM).

There is nothing special about that transmission, or the fluid in it. The fluid, and the filter, need to be changed just the same as with any automatic transmission in history. If you never change it, you WILL shorten the life of the transmission. It is idiotic for anyone to think otherwise. I mean c'mon, it's reasonable to be running 10 year old, 100,000 mile fluid in an automatic??? Dumb.

It's not hard to change it.

You'll need a new pan gasket ($40), a new filter ($50) and around 7 quarts of Dexron VI.

Like they say, it is "lifetime" fluid, but that depends on how you define lifetime. If "lifetime" is defined as the warranty period, then yes, you don't need to change it in its "lifetime."

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

It's a supreme PITA on that car. No dipstick, fluid is expensive as hell (Some weird ESSO fluid), gotta use some weird technique to put the fluid in, get the tranny to operating temp, etc. etc. etc.

It's not that hard to change on his car, or very expensive. Just the same as any other automatic. The only thing a little different is the fill procedure. You don't need a dipstick.

Do this while the car and trans are warm. Not scorching hot, but warm.

1. Remove fill plug.
2. Remove drain plug and drain fluid.
3. Remove pan.
4. Remove filter.
5. Replace filter.
6. Replace pan (using new gasket).
7. Fill up with fluid until it runs out of fill hole.
8. With the fill still open, start car up. This causes the oil pick to pick up oil out of the pan and take into the transmission innards, lowering the level in the pan.
9. While car is running, top up the fluid until it starts to run out of fill hole.
10. Replace fill plug.

Very simple. You don't need to spend a ton of money getting this done. The filter and gasket are under $90, and the fluid is $6/quart or so.

[McLovin]

Many BMW experts recommend changing every 30K. That's what I go by.

[tevake]

No way, But the claim by BMW and others really puts owners in a hard place.
Here is my resent post on another thread here about trans problems on the op's car.

" I was having trans problems on my E39 2002 530i with about 85K mi. It was slipping on starting from a stop, and not shifting crisply. No warning lights. local shop said to rebuild or replace trans. this is said by factory to be a no service trans.
After reading up on the issue I decided to replace the fluid and filter in the trans. the problem cleared right up. Whew!!
Not sure if this is the answer you need but may get you looking in the right direction.
There is some info here on the BMW forum, and on bimmer fest Forum.
Good luck with yours."

Cheers Richard

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by dhoward

I only use pure sperm whale oil in my transmissions.

but is it organic?

[Tim Hancock]

I replaced the auto trans oil in my POS Audi I used to own due to having to fix a leaking trans cooler.... Major PITA as the AWD car had to be on a lift perfectly level, hooked to VagCom and started and running with the wheels spinning and with the VagCom registering trans oil temp at a specified temp. Only at that point could you top the expensve Audi fluid off by pumping it up thru a j shaped nozzle into the trans until it over flowed the stand pipe style bottom drain plug. Of the handful of auto trans cars I have owned over the years (I can only think of three other auto trans cars I have owned out of 25 or so cars over the years).

I have NEVER changed the trans oil in any of my manual trans cars ever with most well over 150k mileage. I have topped them off with cheap 80 or 90 weight gear lube, but I have NEVER had a manual transmission failure (or rear end failure) since I started driving a beat up Beetle in 1982.