IMS Failure - Page 2

Red Baron · 02-09-2012, 08:39 AM

I work at a dealership and we really do not see it that often. I can only remember 2 M96 type engine failures last year and only one of those was IMS, and that was a Boxster/Tiptronic with over 170k on the clock. The other was an 02 996 Tiptronic that had timing chain failure. The other dealership on this property is an Infiniti store and I see more failed engines in their NEWER cars with LESS miles.

intakexhaust · intakexhaust's Garage

05 Boxster toasted IMS bearing and know of 3 others in Chicago. A highly succesfull model for Porsche but off hand don't know the annual selling stats. Probably a very low percentage of failures. What your beginning to see are cars now coming off warrantees but prior to, many already had replaced motors. Many threads about it and too much to start on the technical or reasons why here. Regardless, a terrific car and bargain priced today.

recycled sixtie · recycled sixtie's Garage

I must say that I am happily addicted to my 2001 Boxster base. I have had installed the IMS guardian and so in theory I should get some warning of an implosion. Will install the ln ceramic ims bearing in the next year or so. There is so much info on ims/rms failures that there is no excuse not to know about Porsche failings(especially the Boxster ims) before u buy one. I drive the snot out of it traffic permitting out in the country. Cant wait for spring. Buyer beware!

epbrown · 02-09-2012, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stealthn

If it's this bad and a fundamental design flaw, why wouldn't Porsche fix it, unless it's not that common and all hype. I know Porsche is famous for not fixing flaws (cough...Cayenne coolant tubes....cough), but surely if it spans multiple engines, they would recall for it? No?

Have you ever seen the movie "Class Action"? The plot is a suit against a car manufacturer for a defect that makes the car unsafe. The lawyer representing the car company discovers the flaw is real for a percentage of the run, but it was determined that the cost of a lawsuit and potential settlement was less than the expense of fixing the issue, so they didn't bother.

Porsche didn't fix the defect because it was more expensive than simply replacing the engines that fail within the warranty period, even at $15k a pop for engine and labor.

pwd72s · 02-09-2012, 09:14 AM

Bingo! EP nailed it! Porsche has been run by the bean counters for quite some time.

intakexhaust · intakexhaust's Garage

Porsche honored its warrantee and thats all as expected. Although I know were not relating the IMS failure as a safety issue so why the discussion of class action? Surely no one is ever happy of the crappy, and next time might not consider the brand. Thats the owners choice only and unless its considered a safety issue, then the lawyers could hawk in. If the thinking of a class action suit is acceptable practice for every common failure (non-related safety), then in time most company's would cease to exist.

speeder · speeder's Garage

If someone is really not feeling lucky, buy a used Boxster or 996 for the bargain basement price and invest $500 into the upgraded IMS bearing. Taking the transmission out of a 996 is child's play, not sure about the Boxster. (Mid-engine).

Tobra · Tobra's Garage

I know a guy who has a gold chain melted into his collarbone from being hit by lightning. Thing that almost killed him was drowning in the 6 inch deep puddle he happened to land in, dumb luck. Jogger saw it happen and rolled him over, saved his life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Bingo! EP nailed it! Porsche has been run by the bean counters for quite some time.

That is why I bought a turbo miata for a daily driver. For some time, IMHO, BMW and Porsche have not been engineered and built as well as they once were.

Will eventually get a Boxter or Cayman, without a doubt. If it has a motor that works, will do the IMS replacement, if not, look for a crashed 911 and swap it, though I understand that is high on the difficulty level scale.

I already have a project that I don't have enough time to work on, so that is down the road. I will probably end up buying an air cooled SC or Carrera. I just don't think the air cooled cars are equaled by the water pumpers. I know many or most might disagree, especially if I say something like that over in Rennland.

Rapewta · 02-09-2012, 01:36 PM

Statistical fluxuation and dependant events. No one really knows but this
poor beaten and now dead horse is probably 1 out of 20 996 M96 engines.
Pretty much everyone doesn't care anymore because these cars are old and
only 5% had design RMS/IMS flaws.
The next time an owner replaces the clutch they have the oppertunity to upgrade the Intermediate bearing. You do it.
The great advantage of the potential financial hardship is that owners are
almost giving away the 996.
I jumped on board and got one with 70K. Very inexpensive.
80K on it now and no problemos.
The IMS Guardian is another solution but is way overpriced.
Change your oil often... Slice open your oil filter and inspect it for small metal
fragments.

Dan J · 02-09-2012, 01:41 PM

I have a Porsche repair shop in Ct. We have approx 530 cars in our fleet with the m96/97 eng
Of those cars we have replaced 6 engines so our experience has been slightly more then 1%
Generally speaking we have found these cars to be very dependable

tabs · 02-09-2012, 01:56 PM

Porsche makes WATER COOLED cars????When did this happen?

onewhippedpuppy · 02-09-2012, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaisen

How many open spots need to be in the revolver before you'd play Russian roulette?

Please find me a high end sports car that doesn't have at least one weak point. Actually, find me another high end sports car with a demonstrated record of reliability that is better than a 996/986. NSX immediately comes to mind, but they're more than the average 996/986 as well.

onewhippedpuppy · 02-09-2012, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

But yea, the air cooled cars are completely trouble free. Always have been. Right? Hmm. Well, most every 3.2 I know of, including mine, needed a top overhaul because of worn valve guides at 120,000 miles. Expensive repair. The head studs are a known issue with SC's. Oh, and lets not forget the cam chain tensioners in the air cooled engines that would fail without any apparent warning, destroying these very expensive engines. It took Porsche 20 years - from 1964 to 1984 - to finally come up with a viable solution. Twenty years!! So yea, those air cooled engines have always been, ahem, bullet proof. Yeaaaaaa.

This. Funny how these threads always attract the fanatics that think Porsche development peaked with their 1984 Carrera. I love the older cars but there's also something to be said for a newer model that is faster, handles better, is more comfortable, has working HVAC, and just as much charm as my long hood. Oh yeah, and just as cheap as said Carrera to purchase.

sc_rufctr · 02-09-2012, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Porsche honored its warrantee and thats all as expected. Although I know were not relating the IMS failure as a safety issue so why the discussion of class action? Surely no one is ever happy of the crappy, and next time might not consider the brand. Thats the owners choice only and unless its considered a safety issue, then the lawyers could hawk in. If the thinking of a class action suit is acceptable practice for every common failure (non-related safety), then in time most company's would cease to exist.

You could argue that an engine that suddenly fails with little warning is in fact a safety issue.

epbrown · 02-09-2012, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Porsche honored its warrantee and thats all as expected. Although I know were not relating the IMS failure as a safety issue so why the discussion of class action?

"Class Action" was the name of the movie, but my post was just referring to the rationale given for the plot, not a call for a lawsuit. Porsche didn't fix the problem because it was cheaper for them not to and while we may not like that attitude, it's part of why the company made record profits, along with new models like the Cayenne and Panamera.

The only way all this will impact Porsche is if new car buyers are put off by the poor resale and avoid the brand, which doesn't appear to be happening. People afraid to buy 10-year old cars doesn't bother them in the slightest.

willtel · 02-09-2012, 07:04 PM

Not the IMS but here is one for another well known issue.

Cayenne Class Action

PoloTurbo · 02-09-2012, 07:59 PM

So a general rule would be to buy 2009+ for a water pumper to make sure. Avoiding any IMS RMS problems?

onewhippedpuppy · 02-09-2012, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoloTurbo

So a general rule would be to buy 2009+ for a water pumper to make sure. Avoiding any IMS RMS problems?

Or buy an older one for 25% of the price and spend the money to update the IMS if you're really concerned. Speaking of RMS, of my four water pumpers my current 2003 is the first one to have any RMS seepage. It currently seeps just enough to be moist on the bottom, not enough to drip on the floor. OH THE HORROR! Per the service records it has had a slight seep for the last 25k miles or so, but it doesn't seem to be getting any worse.

Coming from someone that has upgraded to turbo valve covers and different oil return tubes on an air cooled 911 and still not fixed all the leaks, my current RMS "issue" doesn't have me too concerned.

sc_rufctr · 02-09-2012, 08:09 PM

Why doesn't Porsche simply fix the IMS issue?

stealthn · 02-09-2012, 08:14 PM

Thanks for the input guys, so good insight, i wish i had real stats though. Let me make one clarification though, to the guys who think it's just older boxsters, or 996's, it's not it's been around that long, but it happens to boxsters, 996's, caymas and 997's hence my question about carrying the issue forward not just through simuar models, but across model lines.

As well are the aftermarket fixes really a fix? Or has it ever happened aft the fix?

So i should take a dip into the water cooled pool eh?