15% Ethanol coming...

[KNS]

In the news today.

Agency approves first applications for registration of ethanol to make E15
WASHINGTON - The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) approved the first applications for registration of ethanol for use in making gasoline that contains up to 15 percent ethanol – known as E15. Ethanol is a renewable fuel that can be mixed with gasoline. For over 30 years ethanol has been blended into gasoline, but the law limited it to 10 percent by volume for use in gasoline-fueled vehicles. Registration of ethanol to make E15 is a significant step toward its production, sale, and use in model year 2001 and newer gasoline-fueled cars and light trucks.
To enable widespread use of E15, the Obama Administration has set a goal to help fueling station owners install 10,000 blender pumps over the next 5 years. In addition, both through the Recovery Act and the 2008 Farm Bill, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) and U.S. Department of Agriculture have provided grants, loans and loan guarantees to spur American ingenuity on the next generation of biofuels.
Today's action follows an extensive technical review required by law. Registration is a prerequisite to introducing E15 into the marketplace. Before it can be sold, manufactures must first take additional measures to help ensure retail stations and other gasoline distributors understand and implement labeling rules and other E15-related requirements. EPA is not requiring the use or sale of E15.
Ethanol is considered a renewable fuel because it is generally produced from plant products or wastes and not from fossil fuels. Ethanol is blended with gasoline for use in most areas across the country. After extensive vehicle testing by DOE and other organizations, EPA issued two partial waivers raising the allowable ethanol volume to 15 percent for use in model year 2001 and newer cars and light trucks.
E15 is not permitted for use in motor vehicles built prior to 2001 model year and in off-road vehicles and equipment such as boats and lawn and garden equipment. Gas pumps dispensing E15 will be clearly labeled so consumers can make the right choice.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by KNS

Gas pumps dispensing E15 will be clearly labeled so consumers can make the right choice.

What a crock! There is no "right choice", it is just a matter of time until E15 is all that is available once they start pushing it. If your car is earlier than a 2001, just get ready to bend over. But what the hell, Iowa and the corn states love it.

[red-beard]

This is why I bought 2 diesel vehicles

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by red-beard

This is why I bought 2 diesel vehicles

Same here but this is pure BS. Fire all of them and start over...

[redstrosekNic]

What exactly does the increased level of ethanol do to the older engines (not specifically CIS)? Does it dry out rubber and plastic parts of the fuel system? I know the issues it causes by absorbing water... I currently rock CIS on both of my P-Cars, so this makes me nervous for the future

[red-beard]

It attacks the rubber parts. They need to be replaced with Nitrile rubber.

FUEL HOSE

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by red-beard

This is why I bought 2 diesel vehicles

to run Bio-Diesel?

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by redstrosekNic

What exactly does the increased level of ethanol do to the older engines (not specifically CIS)? Does it dry out rubber and plastic parts of the fuel system? I know the issues it causes by absorbing water... I currently rock CIS on both of my P-Cars, so this makes me nervous for the future

Good chance it'll rot out. Mom's CIS Mercedes (amongst many others) experienced this issue years ago. Time to switch to modern EFI.

Hammers your gas mileage too, make less power, more prone to vapor lock, more hygroscopic, just ****ty all around.

I think the owners manual specifically forbids high concentrations of the stuff.

rjp

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Good chance it'll rot out. Mom's CIS Mercedes (amongst many others) experienced this issue years ago. Time to switch to modern EFI.

Hammers your gas mileage too, make less power, more prone to vapor lock, more hygroscopic, just ****ty all around.

I think the owners manual specifically forbids high concentrations of the stuff.

rjp

Looking at E10, there SHOULD only be a 3% dropoff in mileage. In 2002, using E10 in California, my Jeep would get around 15 miles per gallon. After emptying the tank driving to Tuscon, the mileage improved to 17 mpg. This is much more than explained by a 3% difference.

IF the mixutre was 10% Ethanol, 10% Water and 80% Gasoline instead of 10% Ethanol and 90% Gasoline, then the mileage difference adds up.

Regular gas ~ 114K Btu/gal
Ethanol Fuel ~ 76K Btu/gal
E10 ~ 111K Btu/gal
E10W10G80 ~99.9K Btu/gal

However, the latent heat of vaporization for water is 970.4 btu/lb. 1/10th of a gallon of gasoline is around .8 lbs. So there is another loss of 776 Btus

E10W10G80 ~99 Btu/gal

17 mpg would drop to 14.7 mpg.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by 74-911

What a crock! There is no "right choice", it is just a matter of time until E15 is all that is available once they start pushing it. If your car is earlier than a 2001, just get ready to bend over. But what the hell, Iowa and the corn states love it.

Supply and demand my friend. Consumers currently seek out gas stations that sell non-ethanol blend gas. There will be an incentive for some gas stations to not carry this crap. Hopefully one near me.

I'm really glad the government has solved all of the important problems, they must have it all taken care of if they're going to keep throwing good money after bad with ethanol. I'm also glad they force the issue for 2001 and newer cars, as if nobody drives anything older. Even better, I doubt that they fully understand the impact of running E15 on a car not originally designed for it. I bet the automakers love legislation like this, it helps them sell new cars.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Looking at E10, there SHOULD only be a 3% dropoff in mileage. In 2002, using E10 in California, my Jeep would get around 15 miles per gallon. After emptying the tank driving to Tuscon, the mileage improved to 17 mpg. This is much more than explained by a 3% difference.

IF the mixutre was 10% Ethanol, 10% Water and 80% Gasoline instead of 10% Ethanol and 90% Gasoline, then the mileage difference adds up.

Regular gas ~ 114K Btu/gal
Ethanol Fuel ~ 76K Btu/gal
E10 ~ 111K Btu/gal
E10W10G80 ~99.9K Btu/gal

However, the latent heat of vaporization for water is 970.4 btu/lb. 1/10th of a gallon of gasoline is around .8 lbs. So there is another loss of 776 Btus

E10W10G80 ~99 Btu/gal

17 mpg would drop to 14.7 mpg.

My cars all have run like shyte for years on the stuff. I remember fuel problems on my car back in the 90's when we started getting it in the winter.

This stuff is just around to keep midwest farmers making money at our expense.

End the Renewable Fuel Standards.

rjp

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Supply and demand my friend. Consumers currently seek out gas stations that sell non-ethanol blend gas. There will be an incentive for some gas stations to not carry this crap. Hopefully one near me.

I'm really glad the government has solved all of the important problems, they must have it all taken care of if they're going to keep throwing good money after bad with ethanol. I'm also glad they force the issue for 2001 and newer cars, as if nobody drives anything older. Even better, I doubt that they fully understand the impact of running E15 on a car not originally designed for it. I bet the automakers love legislation like this, it helps them sell new cars.

They replaced Ethanol Subsidies with a mandate requiring petroleum companies to produce lots and lots of the stuff.

I wish would could get parts readily that will work with the stuff- especially the vapor lock issues. If it wasn't for that the stuff (and rotting rubber) would be OK.

rjp

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Supply and demand my friend. Consumers currently seek out gas stations that sell non-ethanol blend gas. There will be an incentive for some gas stations to not carry this crap. Hopefully one near me.

I'm really glad the government has solved all of the important problems, they must have it all taken care of if they're going to keep throwing good money after bad with ethanol. I'm also glad they force the issue for 2001 and newer cars, as if nobody drives anything older. Even better, I doubt that they fully understand the impact of running E15 on a car not originally designed for it. I bet the automakers love legislation like this, it helps them sell new cars.

Yes, yes and yes.

But unfortunately the availability of "0E" is not supply/demand driven, I believe it can be mandated by governments (state or local). A few states (MA, CA, etc.) have NO 0E stations carrying non-ethanol gas except for a few farm cooperatives for "off road use only". There are a couple of 0E stations in my neck of the woods in NH but it's simpler/easier to simply get the pump stuff, put it in a holding tank and drain out the water/ethanol crap mix from the bottom after letting it sit for a couple of weeks. PITA, but seems to work.

Alternatively you can use 100LL from an airport (AvGas) but that stuff is not cheap and it will kill your catylitics in a vehicle so equipeed. Works great in my motorcycle though.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I'm really glad the government has solved all of the important problems, they must have it all taken care of if they're going to keep throwing good money after bad with ethanol.

Fixed it for you....

[72doug2,2S]

Is this the solution?
Mix-I-Go

Bell Performance - Mix-I-Go Concentrate Gasoline and Ethanol Treatment - Fuel Additives for Fuel Problems

[onewhippedpuppy]

Quote de onewhippedpuppy

I'm really glad the government has solved all of the important problems, they must have it all taken care of if they're going to keep throwing good money after bad with ethanol.

Fixed it for you....

Yeah, figured it was sarcastic enough that no green text was required.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

They replaced Ethanol Subsidies with a mandate requiring petroleum companies to produce lots and lots of the stuff.

I wish would could get parts readily that will work with the stuff- especially the vapor lock issues. If it wasn't for that the stuff (and rotting rubber) would be OK.

rjp

Zackly. the gubmint gave them tax money to produce ethanol for years, recently they decided to change strategies.

They made it a law that they have to use a certain volume, and now force the refineries come up with the crap uh I mean ethanol or pay huge fines. Cubic fines. Humungus among us fines.

In the long run the taxpayers still end up paying stupid $$$ for crap they don't want but this way they blame the oil companies for ripping them off instead of the gubmint!

brilliant!

In the mean time the price of a bushel of corn has more than doubled in the past 4 years. that means that almost all food prices have to go up too. Beef? yep, corn feed makes beef more 'spensive. Same with chickens and bacon life support systems.
How many foods contain corn meal or corn syrup or other corn products? lots and lots.

But it makes more sense to some einsteins to take food and burn it inneficiently even though it costs too much and results in more pollution than the fuel it displaces.
All so some envirotards can FEEL good.

[red-beard]

How is that cellulistic ethanol coming?

[onewhippedpuppy]

From a station by my office. They'll be getting my business now.

[slakjaw]

God damnit. Here in MN u don't get a choice all has is 10% I drive a 95 Toyota 4runner and my mileage sucks ass already. Not to mention the thing is already a dog.