Engineer-Driven Automakers

[legion]

I've always kept an informal list of what I believed to be engineer-driven automakers. What is an engineer-driven automaker? It's one where the engineers designed the best vehicle they could, then a price tag got put on it. Some had luxury as their goal, some performance, and some safety. Either way, the bean counters didn't enter in the equation. They never engineered to a price or to a volume.

In the early 90's the list looked something like this:

Porsche
BMW
Mercedes-Benz
Ferrari
Lotus
Saab
The truck divisions at the big 3 (they got ignored by the bean-counters and left to their own devices to build what they wanted)

With all of the acquisitions and such, sudden attention from parent companies, and quest for market share, I feel like the list looks like this today:

Lotus (on the endangered species list)
McLaren
Koenigsegg

I'm sure others will disagree, but it should be a good discussion.

[Nostril Cheese]

Pagani

[BReif61]

Shouldn't Ferrari be on the list?

[Noah930]

Not a sexy exotic, but I'd put Honda on that list. OK, maybe the beancounters do play a bit of a role, so that doesn't fulfill all of your anti-price/-volume criteria. But there are certainly times when it seems like Honda's an engineering company that just happens to make cars and motorcycles and other mechanical things.

[myamoto1]

Glad to see Koenigsegg on the list - I re-wrote their business plan in the mid-90's.

[gtc]

Having gone to school with many automotive engineers, I think the problem stems from many cars nowdays being designed by commitee. You have teams that can't agree what approach to take with a car, and they end up with something absolutely average and boring. *ahem* Toyota *ahem*
I think that if you take a look at many of the iconic cars throughout history, they have been a pet project of one engineer/designer/exec. People like Butzi Porsche, Carrol Shelby, Colin Chapman, etc...
Nowdays I think the list would include people like Lee Noble, Bob Lutz, and Gordon Murray.

[Z-man]

Mercedes is still engineering oriented. Always will be. You can't be a leader in automotive innovation, especially in safety integration, without being engineering-oriented.

Further proof: Mercedes has produced more than 80,000 in the past 125 years.

It can be easy to confuse innovative, forward thinking companies with engineering oriented companies. In the case of the three companies you mention (Lotus, McLaren and Koenigsegg) don't they use someone else's drivetrain in their cars? How is that being engineering oriented?

-Z

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Not a sexy exotic, but I'd put Honda on that list. OK, maybe the beancounters do play a bit of a role, so that doesn't fulfill all of your anti-price/-volume criteria. But there are certainly times when it seems like Honda's an engineering company that just happens to make cars and motorcycles and other mechanical things.

Look at the new front suspension on the Civic. Bean counters win.

[Noah930]

That's been true for the last couple iterations of the Civic. But for quite awhile Honda ran wishbones front and rear while everyone else in the econobox market was using the universal McPherson strut front and McPherson or trailing link rear suspension.

You could argue that even modern Porsche has a quite a bit of beancounterism visible/tangible in their cars today.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Z-man

Mercedes is still engineering oriented. Always will be. You can't be a leader in automotive innovation, especially in safety integration, without being engineering-oriented.

Further proof: Mercedes has produced more than 80,000 in the past 125 years.

It can be easy to confuse innovative, forward thinking companies with engineering oriented companies. In the case of the three companies you mention (Lotus, McLaren and Koenigsegg) don't they use someone else's drivetrain in their cars? How is that being engineering oriented?

-Z

Mercedes had dark days during the Chrysler merger. They aren't back to the grand old days of building the best cars on Earth, but they're getting closer. Sadly they seem to be dominated by electrical engineers, because their focus is on cramming as many gizmos as possible onto each model. BMW is the same way.

I would define engineering oriented (and I'm an engineer) by the focus of doing something simply to prove that it can be done and doing it to perfection, not to satisfy a business case. Companies like Lotus, McLaren, Koeingsegg, and Pagani are PERFECT examples of this. Their cars reflect the drive to be the best, to build the best car regardless of the cost. We have a saying at work, "don't let perfect become the enemy of good enough". These carmakers are driven by perfect. Most makers, including Mercedes and Porsche, are driven by good enough because it creates a profit.

[Hydrocket]

Although I rather enjoy my car, I must disagree with Porsche. There are some engineering and ergonomic oversights that no engineer in their right mind would accept in this car, or sign their name to. Many make me scratch me head (I'm an engineer in the industry). No, Porsche was designed as a passionate car with a focus on performance rather than a technical design exercise. The passion and singular attention to performance made many engineering compromises.

On the other end of the spectrum, there's Toyota. Having worked with many (most?) OEMs, Toyota is the one that I've seen that places engineering above just about everything else. Often times to the detriment of the car. How so? Toyota's are so beautifully engineered, so expertly crafted, if often makes them seem synthetic and lifeless. Dull and boring? Mostly. Expertly engineered? Absolutely.

But sometimes they get it right. Here's a very rare insight (actually, the only insight) into the LF-A factory. It's a 5 part read. Trust me, it's worth your time if you are into how cars are built. The attention to detail goes beyond OCD. But it all comes together to make a fantastic machine. This is one of my favorite sounding cars in the world. I just love it and could listen to it all day.

Part1 The Making Of The Lexus LFA Supercar: Who, What, Where And Most Of All Why. An Inside Report, Chapter 1: From A Bar To Bar None | The Truth About Cars

Part2 The Making Of The Lexus LFA Supercar. An Inside Report, Chapter 2: In The Clean Room. | The Truth About Cars

Part3 The Making Of The Lexus LFA Supercar. An Inside Report, Chapter 3: Call Me Names | The Truth About Cars

Part4 The Making Of The Lexus LFA Supercar. An Inside Report, Chapter 4: Balance Of Power | The Truth About Cars

Part5 The Making Of The Lexus LFA Supercar: An Inside Report, Chapter 5: Exam Week. | The Truth About Cars

Oh..and this video is also a MUST see. Koenigsegg. A truly wonderful car (one of my favs), and a great guy. I met him once. This vid is one of the best 30 minutes you'll ever see: Koenigsegg: Sweden's Hypercar - DRIVEN - YouTube

[black73]

Audi?

[jcommin]

The Germans are leading the technology in high strength steels. They are developing tooling and stamping equipment to produce these exotic metals into body parts. The driver is reduced weight, better mpg. They are also using high strength aluminum especially for hoods and rear trunk decks. I recently attended a metal stamping seminar in Ohio - we are lagging in this. The biggest reason - low energy costs.

The world views are energy policy as a joke.

[krystar]

if Honda was run by bean counters, i suspect that my RSX engine and drivetrain wouldn't have been produced. it's so totally over engineered. people are slapping on big turbo's on a 100% stock top and bottom end and making 200% of original hp and not blowing up the motor or trans.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Mercedes had dark days during the Chrysler merger. They aren't back to the grand old days of building the best cars on Earth, but they're getting closer. Sadly they seem to be dominated by electrical engineers, because their focus is on cramming as many gizmos as possible onto each model. BMW is the same way.

There is a reason for this: average Joe consumer & differentiation. Basically, when every other car on the planet has stuff like Navi, traction control, ABS and the old technology stuff like power doors & locks, ps, pb, the luxo car makers have to rely on these (worthless in many cases) techno gadgets to differentiate their cars over the Chevys and Toyotas of the world. Why? 'Cause if Joe Average's Chevy Cruze is equiped with the same 'options' as is available in a Mercedes CLS, then Mrs. Wall-Street Jones won't be too happy now, will he?

I would define engineering oriented (and I'm an engineer) by the focus of doing something simply to prove that it can be done and doing it to perfection, not to satisfy a business case. Companies like Lotus, McLaren, Koeingsegg, and Pagani are PERFECT examples of this. Their cars reflect the drive to be the best, to build the best car regardless of the cost. We have a saying at work, "don't let perfect become the enemy of good enough". These carmakers are driven by perfect. Most makers, including Mercedes and Porsche, are driven by good enough because it creates a profit.

Wonderful! Then technically, by extention, Mercedes-Benz and BMW are also engineer-driven automaker. How so? Well, considering that one of the most important components (engine and drivetrain) of these cars (McLaren, Keingsegg, Pagani) are made (ie engineered) by Mercedes and BMW, well, one can only conclude...

-Z-man.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

All road cars are engineered to a price that keeps the bean counters happy.

You only need to see which manaufacturers were or are involved in motorsport and at what level to work out which ones are engineering lead.

[t951]

I think the Nissan GT-R is a purely engineering driven car.

Every curve on it, which are not good looking, are purposeful. I think it represents what Porsche used to be.

[911pcars]

While not on the same level as the big guys. I'm pretty impressed with the guys who repurposed a Polish MIG factory to manufacture their version of the Shelby Cobra.

B.g. here:
Cobra replicas and 427 Cobra replicas by Kirkham Engineering

Build videos here:
Cobra replicas and 427 Cobra replicas by Kirkham Engineering

Sherwood

[Hendog]

Subaru.

Their cars were not the most aesthetically pleasing because they were focused on engineering. They've since added some styling to increase market share. They were ahead in the 4wheel drive and all wheel drive technology.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

All road cars are engineered to a price that keeps the bean counters happy.

You only need to see which manaufacturers were or are involved in motorsport and at what level to work out which ones are engineering lead.

To build on this a bit, I would state that most engineering led automakers either make very expensive cars or end up broke. When truly freed of constraints, an engineer doesn't give a rats ass about profit or cost. They just want to make the most gee-whiz geek out super widget on Earth, regardless of what they are designing. They want to make it the best, even when the customer won't pay for it. It's probably why many sports car makers end up broke.

A good example would be the Lexus LF-A. Lexus has stated that they will lose money on every car they sell, even though it is astronomically expensive at $375k. But it is an exercise in what can be done, an example of what is possible when there are no limits. Obviously Toyota/Lexus can afford to lose money on them, and they have a positive value as a halo car for the company.