Saving Greece....

[RWebb]

who was it that got Greece into the EU under false pretenses?

was it Lehman Bros.?

[dlockhart]

Originally Posted by red-beard

There was a cab driver interviewed. When he was asked who was worse, the bankers or the protesters? His answer was they were both criminals. The people are "in the middle" between the bankers and the anarchists.

ummm people who are rioting because they want more government are not anarchists

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by jyl

But I think the media is missing a big part of the story. The easy media story is that Greece's problem is too many direct and indirect benefits and that cutting spending (austerity) is the sole solution. That is the story that Germany and other Eurozone powers want to tell. The under-told story is that Greece has a revenue collection problem which is at heart a high level corruption problem. In 2009, Greeks concealed EUR28BN of income which is about EUR11BN of tax revenue lost, which is IIRC larger than Greece's budget deficit was at that time. The primary tax evaders are the higher income and highest income Greeks (business owners, professional class). That happens to include much of the Greek parliament.

I agree, but will add a bit to it. I worked in a Socialist/Communist, Romania. 20+ years after the fall, the hatred/fear of the government was still there. Corruption (especially the police) was endemic. Business kickbacks to government were basically a cost of doing business.

I agree that austerity alone will not fix anything. The regulations, paper work, BS work and bureaucracy all need to be reduced. You can't make people entrepreneurs, but you can make the conditions right for those people to succeed.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I was talking about this with a friend in Austria a few mos. ago who's not really into politics. She said, when the EU was mostly about open borders and a currency union she thought it was fine and, having been to Greece a few times, thought it would really help them out. But then she said when it got to regulating everything from light bulbs to child car seats, it got ridiculous and she's ready for it to all break up. I don't think they want the refugee flood either and EU citizens can pretty easily move around within the EU.

In the word of Ian,
Hmmm. Not to parf up the thread, but this could apply closer to home.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Well, first, not many islands are state owned. And you can't sell somthing you don't own.

Two words: eminent domain.

Originally Posted by Dottore

Second, even if there were state owned islands to sell, giving up sovereignty is a very, very political issue, which would never fly with the public. A Greek politician who suggested this would be commiting political suicide.

It seems to me that a few Greek politicians committing suicide (political or otherwise) might not be such a bad step towards fixing the problem.

[jyl]

So I looked into it a bit, and discovered that the Eurozone powers have successfully accomplished one of their goals.

Their banking system, in particular Germany's banks, have been mostly bailed and/or insulated from their ill-advised purchases of Greek govt debt. As of earlier this year, only about EUR60BN of Greek debt remains held by the private sector which includes Eurozone banks, and most of that has enhanced credit protections. The banks sold most of thier Greek debt and some was down. The rest, appx EUR240BN, is in public hands: EUR50BN held by the ECB and about EUR190BN by the EFSF which is in turn backed by the Eurozone govts.

So now, if Greece defaults, the losses will be mostly borne by the Eurozone govts, which means primarily by Germany who is the financial big man in Europe. As I explained before, most of the money to service that debt is, in the foreseeable future, coming from Germany and the other Eurozone govts. To oversimplify, money is going from the German govt to Greece and turning right back around to go back to the German govt.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I was going to say the exact same thing.

ooh, creepy, bankruptcy that austerity alone has no hope of solving, corrupt government, where have I seen this, hmm...

When California implodes it will be worse than Greece

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Two words: eminent domain.
m.

Good luck with that in Greece!

[gwood]

Empires fall. Always.
Fiat currencies collapse. Always.
The only thing to debate is timing.

[Aggie93]

Originally Posted by RWebb

who was it that got Greece into the EU under false pretenses?

was it Lehman Bros.?

Goldman

Goldman Secret Greece Loan Shows Two Sinners as Client Unravels - Bloomberg

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by gwood

Empires fall. Always.
Fiat currencies collapse. Always.
The only thing to debate is timing.

I wonder how long we have here in the US.

[imcarthur]

The exodus continues:

"Coca-Cola Hellenic, the world's second biggest bottler of Coke, is moving its headquarters out of Greece, dealing a symbolic blow to the crisis-stricken eurozone economy. The company is Greece's biggest by market value ($7.6 billion) but generates only 5% of its business domestically.

Coca-Cola Hellenic (CCH) picked Switzerland as its new home, citing the country's stable economic and regulatory environment. It will also move its primary stock listing to the London Stock Exchange through a share exchange with Swiss-based Coca-Cola HBC AG. Coca-Cola Hellenic has listings in London, New York and Athens. It's also the largest holding in the Global X FTSE Greece 20 ETF (GREK), which lists the National Bank of Greece (NBG) as its second biggest holding." Source CNN Money

Ian