Alonso whining like the liitle b*tch we've come to know

[450knotOffice]

By the way, his stupid backwards FINGER when he wins is classless.

[javadog]

Henry, nothing personal but it's well known around here that for you, Vettel is your number 1. Nobody else is even in your top ten, so...

Look at the numbers:

Red Bull was 0 for 74 in cars not designed by Newey.
Red Bull is 32 for 216 in cars designed by Newey.

Need more evidence? The only season in which Vettel really did well was 2011. If you look at Weber's average finish in the sister car that year, and compare it to his lifetime average, the only conclusion anybody can draw is that Red Bull's 2011 car was a superb one.

Vettel has talent, no question. If Newey weren't behind his cars, I'd say he'd have zero championships and only a few wins, if any. He wouldn't even be ahead of Alonso this year, if Alonso had not been taken out in a couple races. And, by any measure, the 2012 Ferrari is a comparative dog compared to the Red Bull.

Alonso's comments are spot on and I understand what he's up to. Vettel hasn't always had nice things to say when things don't go his way. He's got a little growing up to do. If he's not careful, he'll turn into another Hambone.

If anybody needs to be muzzled, let's make it that idiot Helmut Marko...

JR

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Whoa guys, its only meant to be a discussion, why the need for the personal comments aimed at Henry?

He is entitled to his own opinions, if you don't agree then post a constructive reply why if not go away and leave us to enjoy the thread.

I think with the help of the press people mistake Alonso commitment and focus for arrogance, I'm not saying he is the perfect driver but he's the closest there is at the moment. As for the McLaren situation I think you'll find the team brought it on themselves by mis-managing the drivers working relationship between themselves and the team.

Good F1 drivers are competing every waking minute and if they see any sign of weakness in their competitiors, they'll seize on it and use it to their advantage wether it be on the track or off the track.

Not sure how I can make this any clearer but any quote you read from Alonso that goes into the press will be for a very specific reason and he will have thought long and hard before saying it.

He is the real deal and far ahead as an all round driver than any of the others. He's dragged the 3rd quickest car and the team up to 1st place without complaining once, I don't think Vettel has the depth of character to do that.

Maybe in a few years time when Vettel has matured a bit and spread his wings from his cosseted position within Red Bull he too could be considered as good as Alonso but for now Adrian Newey is playing a huge part in the idealistic view people have of him as a driver.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

I can recall MANY times when things have gone badly for Vettel that he has done some classless things. Honestly. I think Vettel shows class when he's winning, and becomes sulky when he's losing.

I have to admit that I may be a little optimist about this great young driver, so of course I could have missed all the "MANY" classless things Vettel has done. Please be specific. Thank you

[Joeaksa]

"Grabbing a chair, whiskey and cigar to watch this discussion!"

[andyt11]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

By the way, his stupid backwards FINGER when he wins is classless.

It certianly is. As is spraying champaign in the eyes of the (very well dressed) royal guards in monte carlo.

[Henry Schmidt]

Just so I'm clear, you guys are talking about this? Really?

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

By the way, his stupid backwards FINGER when he wins is classless.

The way Vettel shows the #1 sign is how it's done in Germany, I have been told (by Slodave). He'd look at us and think we're doing it the retarded way.

I don't think Vettel has ever been much of a whiner. He's one of the few guys who seems genuinely ecstatic with a victory. And I can't recall him (regularly) bad-mouthing his team or others when things don't go his way. He's no Hambone.

Alonso may have been a whiner, even in the recent past (i.e. castigating Petrov for not letting him by two years ago in the last race). But I wasn't struck by him as being a whiner or excuse-maker for the OP's post; just being candid. Alonso has certainly carried his entire team these past 2 seasons. He's been nothing but positive and diplomatic last year and this, AFAIK.

[Joeaksa]

SloDave is correct. Things are done differently in Europe... a lot differently in many cases.

[andyt11]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

I have to admit that I may be a little optimist about this great young driver, so of course I could have missed all the "MANY" classless things Vettel has done. Please be specific. Thank you

I'm not sure how MANY classless things he has done, there probably arnt that many, but I still remember this a year later....



To me, it's similar to spraying a hose pipe on the solider that guards Buckingham.

I also wasn't impressed later that year in Brazil when Vettel radioed that he felt like senna in 91, (because he was driving with a dodgey gearbox). I'm not sure you get to make any kind of comparison like that at this point in your career. Senna had to be lifted out of the car due to exhaustion. But perhaps I take his short comment too seriously.

Anyway, everyone has their own favorites, and I have to admit, I'm just not a Vettel guy. I'm not a hambone guy either, now he really does whine on. Some of his radio transmissions leave me wondering what was the point in saying anything. Nothing good can come of most of them!

It will be really interesting if we get to see Alonso and Vettel at Ferrari together in 2014 perhaps.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by andyt11

I also wasn't impressed later that year in Brazil when Vettel radioed that he felt like senna in 91, (because he was driving with a dodgey gearbox). I'm not sure you get to make any kind of comparison like that at this point in your career. Senna had to be lifted out of the car due to exhaustion. But perhaps I take his short comment too seriously.

Funny, I didn't see it as arrogance. Obviously, if you make comparisons to other drivers, they'll be comparisons to the guys who are remembered. Who's going to remember anything about the wanker at the end of the pack? The comparison wasn't about what a magnificent driver Vettel is--it was about driving with a faulty gearbox. I saw Vettel's comment at least as a nod to the history of F1. If he's such a student of its history, he probably does have a grasp of how his accomplishments (don't) match up against those of the Sennas (not Bruno), Fangios, and Schumachers (not Ralf).

[450knotOffice]

Fine. I stand corrected if that is how the Germans show a Number 1 sign. I have just been rubbed the wrong way by his (IMO) over-exuberant sort of upward jab from the hip that he does with it. To me it looks like a big emphatic "Look at ME! I'm the BEST!" sign. I've never been an in-your-face guy. Never been my style. So, that antic has always rubbed me a bit negatively.

Hell, I'm GERMAN/American too. Born there and raised for the first seven years of my life, so I'm not anti-German.

[livi]

I am just amazed that the guys on this level can handle the pressure and still perform as brilliantly as they do. Of course they will have a temper and mood that will swing with the tide. They canīt all be robots like Schumi.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by livi

I am just amazed that the guys on this level can handle the pressure and still perform as brilliantly as they do. Of course they will have a temper and mood that will swing with the tide. They canīt all be robots like Schumi.

Markus, you are absolutely correct. They perform magnificently (every one) and there is a tremendous amount of pressure. Character shows when the expression of that pressure is vented.
That is what this conversation was about. Alonso is a "drama queen" and I get embarrassed for him when he seeks cover for his performance.


"When we had similar cars to everyone, we were leading the championship. Now we are fighting against a Newey car,"
paraphrasing of course: " If I don't win the championship, it won't be Vettel that beat me, it will his car". That is pathetic from a champion. He should leave that argument for the Tifosi.

When I was racing, I would hear that crap all the time. "If I had your bike, I could do what you do".

Vettel earned his ride and at times, that ride has proven to be flawless and at times has robbed him of a well earned positions. Any of you remember the Red Bull that ate rear tyres, lacked straight line speed and had alternator failures?
Do any of you remember the fortuitous conditions that helped Alonso gain the points lead in the first place?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

" If I don't win the championship, it won't be Vettel that beat me, it will his car". That is pathetic from a champion. He should leave that argument for the Tifosi.

When I was racing, I would hear that crap all the time. "If I had your bike, I could do what you do".

Henry, you don't agree that Red bull has a faster car than Ferrari? You think they are equal, and Vettel is simply outdriving Alonso?

At this level, all of the drivers are very, very good. Some are better than others, but we're talking very small differences. It's not at all like amateur racing at all. There is vastly more variation in the capabilities of the cars than of the good drivers.

It's the same in any high level sport. Look at MotoGP. Rossi can't win on the Ducati. He can only make the podium if something befalls the better riders in a race. You think he can't ride? He's got nine world titles. It's the bike and everybody in the pit lane knows it.

JR

[Henry Schmidt]

Once again, this conversation is not about the drivers abilities. I made my case for Vettels abilities and at no time questioned Alonso's abilities other than to point out that "rookie" Hamilton handed Fred his ass when they were head to head at McLaren.
Remember Alonso's attempt to elevate his position to #1 at McLaren by blackmailing Ron Dennis rather than working harder?

Throughout his career Alonso has been willing to blame others. Could his statement about Newey be accurate? sure. But to suggest that Vettel isn't driving like a champion leaves him (Fred) looking small, somewhat *****y.

[javadog]

They are both driving well. The guy in the faster car is leading the chammpionship. Alonso's comments reflect that.

JR

[Deschodt]

Well, the title of the thread is that "Alonso is a whiny *****", and the OP clearly has somewhat of a crush on Vettel, so the expectations on the thread aren't very high for opinions to be changed.

Like most, I respect the driving talent of ALL those guys, even Karthikayan (sp?). Everything else is likely to be psychological games and media drumming up articles...

If we completely leave aside opinions on driving talent, and the fact that the Newey car is a much better car than the Ferrari (both of which would make for a nicer topic), I think that Alonso is simply stating facts and or psychological warfare to destabilise Vettel.

As far as whining, one could say Vettel looks like a sulking schoolboy in the interview room everytime he's not on pole, even more so when Webber used to beat him. His attitude towards Webber in turkey after the accident was also not all that classy. others were mentioned above... If you want to postulate that alonso is a whiny *****, one might postulate Vettel is a spoiled brat. Just sayin'... Not sure anything positive will come out of that thread except for Alonso fans not buying from supertec ;-)

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Henry, just had a thought you are right Alonso does do a good wine.....

I enjoyed a bottle of his 2010 vintage and will enjoy another bottle from him this Chrismas.

Here are a couple of bottles I still have left to enjoy

[tevake]

Au contrair, I have really enjoyed most this conversation! I noted particularly the comment about the year that Hamilton and Alonso shared at Mclaren, interesting take that the British influenced racing press chose to amplify the whining of Alonso that year ( possibly somewhat true).
To me he seemed to be totally self absorbed. Putting his interests over that of the team.
His expectation to be the #1 driver for the team surely didn't play out as he hoped. And his behavior became atrocious and self centered as the season unfolded. His blocking the pit from his teammate just one of the most visible moves. His attempt to blackmail his team into doing his will, another.

However the modern system for driver development is at part to blame. The most talented drivers in Europe and other parts of the F1 mad parts of the world are identified early and supported by the teams for years before we ever see them on the Formula stage. During those years surly there are opportunities to do some life coaching to steer them around some of these ego driven behaviors. Or it may be that the type of characters that excel in this elite level are prone to flights of EGO.

I have to admit that Alonso has redeemed himself over the last couple seasons. With results better than the team could have expected, considering the cars they have given him to work with. And a much better attitude both on and off track. He seems more mature and measured. But now he is the undisputed #1 at Ferrari, a position he expects. So no wonder he is happy.

I do think that drivers try to get into each others heads too.

Cheers Richard