Would I be crazy to say that I can 100% outdrive any ABS computer?

[fastfredracing]

It seems much worse on American vehicles, Once wheel speed deviation is sensed by the computer, it seems as if it is going to do what it wants to do, no matter how I try to modulate the pedal, or adjust the steering angle.
There have been a few times when I had our M3 at or close to the limit, where traction control kicked in, and re-adjusted the car a little, and maybe.... a big maybe saved my bacon.
I was moving cars around today, and plowing my lot, and I had this 330i and I swear to buckwheat, that pressing the gas in drive , made the car creep backwards. The traction control computer, was trying to stop wheel spin, on the rear drive wheel that was spinning and basically , the more gas I give it, the more it applies the brakes on that wheel. I turned traction control off, and crawled right out of the snow drift. .
After I am doing plowing , and shoveling out this afternoon, I am taking the ABS fuse out of my jeep for the rest of winter.

[Superman]

I once spoke to an insurance company representative about insurance for my 911. 1978 SC. Lightened. Weighs about 2450 with 1/3 tank of gas. Excellent, wide tires (Kumho). Four disk brake rotors that are about 11" in diameter. She asked whether it has anti-lock brakes and, of course, I said No. Had to chuckle, though. I'd be delighted to have a braking contest with any modern car. This 911 stops just fine.

[Dantilla]

I do not like the ABS in my 2001 Chevy truck.

Any little dip in the road may start the system cutting the brakes, but it continues after all four regain traction.

Quick to activate, rediculously slow in returning control to the driver.

[Z-man]

My $0.42: unless you are a well seasoned racecar driver who is used to driving non-ABS equipped cars at their limits, you simply can't outdrive an ABS equipped car.

Those who have mastered the technique of threshold braking on non-ABS equipped cars are able to modulate the breaking pressure better than an ABS system, since the ABS system tries to copy the analog effect of threshold breaking by digitizing the breaing (rapid pulsating on-off breaking).

Lots of modern racecars are ABS equipped. I guess that means that either it does a better job, or even racecar drivers nowadays aren't that good at braking.

I have an ABS equipped 944S2 that I track - since I've never had any significant track experience with a non-ABS equipped car, I suspect that I would not fair too well without this driver's aid. That said, ABS has saved my skin a couple of times out on the track...

-Z-man.

[mikesride]

The ABS on my 2011 F250 is dangerous.....absolutely trash.

[Noah930]

In the dry, the ABS in my Honda Civic stinks. It kicks in whenever braking over non-smooth pavement. Even when braking in my non-ABS 911 (at the same spot of pavement) feels perfectly fine.

In the wet, ABS can probably brake better than I can.

There's also going to be a big difference in a race-designed ABS system than in an ordinary street car's.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Superman

I once spoke to an insurance company representative about insurance for my 911. 1978 SC. Lightened. Weighs about 2450 with 1/3 tank of gas. Excellent, wide tires (Kumho). Four disk brake rotors that are about 11" in diameter. She asked whether it has anti-lock brakes and, of course, I said No. Had to chuckle, though. I'd be delighted to have a braking contest with any modern car. This 911 stops just fine.

You would lose badly, especially against an ABS-equiped Porsche. And especially if the contest involved braking and steering at the same time, such as around an obstacle, (think child running out into street for a ball and car coming the other direction at same time).

This was demonstrated for me at a Porsche sponsored event at the old Riverside raceway in 1986 when I worked at the dealer. Even with pretty good factory drivers from Germany who knew how to modulate a 911 pedal better than anyone here, they could not perform the simulated *child running out+ car coming the other way* at 50 mph w/o hitting cones. When we mortals tried it, we killed the kid AND ourselves by going head-on into the oncoming (imaginary) truck. I still remember his thick German accent in the passenger seat, "you are on your way to the morgue".

In a 928 or 944 w/ ABS, every single one of the mediocre drivers from the dealers could do the maneuver. It was one of the most eye-opening experiences of my driving life. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I could probably outdrive well over 99% of the general public on snow and ice. I learned to drive on a frozen lake and grew up in Minnesota, a state that is quite literally covered in ice a lot of the time. I used to drive a Crown Vic taxi 200 miles a night in the city all winter and never got into so much as a fender bender. Driving as fast as humanly possible on slippery surfaces is my idea of fun.

That said, you would be a serious fool to disconnect the ABS on a street car. It's a tool, and a great one. The trick is to learn to use it, including out-driving it when you want to. There are certain, very limited instances where it's a hindrance, such as situations where wheels leave the ground for a nano-second, but even then a good system figures it out and works well. The ABS on my 996 w/ coil-overs was fantastic. On a street car driven in the winter, it would not be wise at all to disable it.

Also, there is a big difference between ASR or traction control and ABS.

[pksystems]

The ABS in my '98 Eagle Talon is horrendous.

In rain, stopping distances are a joke with ABS enabled. Without a fuse, the car stops now, not 10 feet after it should have stopped.

I'm sure it's much improved in more modern cars.

Learn to threshold brake. I've never locked the brakes on either of my non-abs cars, with plenty of emergency stops.

We'll see when my p-car is done.... big brakes on a light weight car

[RWebb]

people who think they can outbrake an ABS system, also think they can outrun a grizzly and outski an avalanche

but don't confuse ABS with traction control, or electronic stability systems


don't confuse the antidive abilities of a rear engined car with even a well designed front motored car (Bavarian Buick)

[Flieger]

While racing ABS systems are better than street ones, street ABS will be hard to out-do manually. If the ABS system does not pulse out individual wheels you might be able to beat it manually because it would be giving up some braking force on the wheel with more grip.

However, on snow, ice or gravel it is not a good idea to use ABS if you want to stop anytime soon. The reason is that the plowing/sliding effective friction coefficient is greater than the rolling/static coefficient of friction. Note that this is a complete reversal of the dry road situation (or even the wet road situation).

So, since you mentioned snow, I would say you are doing the right thing pulling the fuse.

[jyl]

There is a difference between your performance when you are at 100% fitness and concentration and anticipation (racetrack) and when you are surprised and reacting (street, commuting home, late, tired, child darts into traffic).

[wdfifteen]

Even if you could outdrive ABS, would you really want to be driving at that level of attention all the time? CAN you drive at that level of attention all the time? I can't. After 9 hours on the highway, when I get off to find a room for the night I know for sure I couldn't stop as fast as my rolling computer could.

[Rick V]

When I used to track my E36 I would kill the traction control and the ABS. I can whoa a cup up faster and straighter with the three pedals than using the ABS stuff. I can predict the ABS can only react.

[pksystems]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Even if you could outdrive ABS, would you really want to be driving at that level of attention all the time? CAN you drive at that level of attention all the time? I can't. After 9 hours on the highway, when I get off to find a room for the night I know for sure I couldn't stop as fast as my rolling computer could.

hmm? I hope you're paying attention all the time when driving.

[Tim Hancock]

Just drove my wife's 330i on snow covered roads this morning. Traction control feels like it lets me accelerate and drive much harder in the snow than when turned off. That said, I do not like the ABS brakes on SNOW in the 330 or any other car I have ever driven with it. I do like ABS for wet roads.... just not on snow.

[A930Rocket]

There were day where I wished I had ABS in my old 930 while tracking it. Flat spotted tires that cost $400 isn't fun...

[mikesride]

Can you disable ABS just by pulling a fuse?? Really? Cause my trucks ABS is absolutely dangerous in snow and ice.....

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by mikesride

Can you disable ABS just by pulling a fuse?? Really? Cause my trucks ABS is absolutely dangerous in snow and ice.....

On older cars you could. As cars have gotten increasingly computerized maybe not. Perhaps check the owners manual to see if it has anything in there about driving in snow.

[cashflyer]

As mentioned already, ABS is not traction control, or stability control. Although many systems have been integrated to work together.

I like the pure ABS in my wife's car. In the snow and on wet pavement, it absolutely makes a difference.

By contrast, on dry track, I hate the PSM in my 996. It won't let you flick the car or really bury it into a corner, it won't let you drift the rear end, and the differential braking that it uses will ruin pads in what seems like no time at all.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by Z-man

I have an ABS equipped 944S2 that I track - since I've never had any significant track experience with a non-ABS equipped car, I suspect that I would not fair too well without this driver's aid. That said, ABS has saved my skin a couple of times out on the track...

-Z-man.

I'm surprised to hear you say this. You shouldn't be into the ABS at all on the track. The only time I have it come on is when the pavement has changed....someone dropped oil, etc. the objective of threshold braking is to brake without it coming on.