Why do we not have a choice non ethanol gas in CA?

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by lindbhr

Blame the EPA...it's their mandate.

It's their mandate designed to keep the IGNORANT greenies happy.
And it's a joke.
It's worse for the environment, it raises fuel costs, it raises FOOD costs, but it puts money in the farmer's pockets and raises ...... TAX REVENUE.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

I've been buying 97.5 RON gasoline recently. I think the 1982 SC engine runs better/more smoothly on it than 95 RON. It maybe placebo effect I don't know. Anyways... It has 10% ethanol. Is this OK for my car or is it going to eat some rubber connections in the fuel line and cause a fire?

It certainly might.

This is why I no longer have "1986 951" in my signature line.

[JAR0023]

Originally Posted by look 171

I don't know how gasoline sales, distribution, or state reg. works but knowing many people would buy the non ethanol gas why wouldn't more stations carry it, or it is that they can't sell it at all within the state? If so, what about those few places?

I get two answers when I ask people around here that should know. Station owners and one driver that I know. Those that can typically price non-ethanol $.10-20 more per gallon and sell all they can get.

One is storage. The local station has to have the separate tank to store non-ethanol fuel separate from ethanol laced fuel. Many of the smaller stations around here don't have the tanks. The big corporate stations don't want to mess with it.

Two is getting the fuel from the refinery. I'm an hour south of Memphis and much of the fuel in stations around here comes from the Valero refinery in Memphis. A while back they simply stopped producing non-ethanol premium. They still make non-ethanol regular.

I've also see in the last six months around here two new stations built by different outfits, and they are setting up dedicated pumps for non-enthanol fuel.

-J

[cashflyer]

Originally Posted by look 171

Can anyone go into a local airport and buy aviation gas? Can we run them in our cars (no cat)? What's the difference between Aviation and no lead race gas?

In answer to your first question, it is illegal for use in on-road vehicles. Most airports will not sell it to anyone who wants to pump directly into their vehicle. You may need to bring jerry cans. Answer to Question 2 and 3... Avgas has different additives. It should not harm your pre-cat automobile. It may harm your wallet.

Originally Posted by dmcummins

I could save big time if I could get ethanol free gas for my plane. There are two airports in the area that have it for about $1.50 cheaper than 100LL. It just doesn't pay me to make a special trip there to fill up.

IIRC, both issuers of the STCs require you to test every batch of auto gas to assure there is no alcohol. People have encountered stations selling e10 as "alcohol free". Maybe it was a slip up with the distribution truck, or maybe they were shoring up their profits. But it's your ass in the air, so I suggest you test.

Also, keep in mind that automotive fuel from the pump is NOT the same everywhere you go. There are summer blends, winter blends, geographical blends within the seasonal changes, varying levels and types of oxygenates (not just ethanol) and when tanks are switched over a mixture of "in between".


Unleaded Fuels: Airworthiness by Design - Lycoming

[RWebb]

what other oxygenates?

MBTA is now phased out, isn't it?

[cashflyer]

MTBE has been phased out in areas that require "reformulated gasoline". I am not sure what the current MTBE status is in the rest of the US, but it is still being used in many other coutries.

Other oxygenates: TAME, ETBE, iso-octane


Reformulated gasoline (RFG) is gasoline blended to burn more clearly than conventional gasoline and to reduce smog-forming and toxic pollutants in the air we breathe. The RFG program was mandated by Congress in the 1990 Clean Air Act amendments. The first phase of the RFG program began in 1995 and the second (current) phase began in 2000.

RFG is required in cities with high smog levels and is optional elsewhere. RFG is currently used in 17 states and the District of Columbia. About 30 percent of gasoline sold in the U.S. is reformulated.
(Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) | Fuels and Fuels Addtives | US EPA)


Edit: Found this bit of info...
"MTBE is no longer allowed in gasoline dispensed at public pumps, however it may still be found in additives and in specialty racing fuel"

[RWebb]

thx - my dream is to get cheap 100% iso-octane someday...

[onewhippedpuppy]

I have one right next to my office, the Audi gets 2-3 MPG better on real gas. I'm hoping the fools in Washington will wake up when their constituents start complaining about expensive food.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by JAR0023

I get two answers when I ask people around here that should know. Station owners and one driver that I know. Those that can typically price non-ethanol $.10-20 more per gallon and sell all they can get.

One is storage. The local station has to have the separate tank to store non-ethanol fuel separate from ethanol laced fuel. Many of the smaller stations around here don't have the tanks. The big corporate stations don't want to mess with it.

Two is getting the fuel from the refinery. I'm an hour south of Memphis and much of the fuel in stations around here comes from the Valero refinery in Memphis. A while back they simply stopped producing non-ethanol premium. They still make non-ethanol regular.

I've also see in the last six months around here two new stations built by different outfits, and they are setting up dedicated pumps for non-enthanol fuel.

-J

If a refiner (like Valero) can't prove to the gubmint that at least 10% of all the fuel they sold was ethanol they get in really, really big trouble.

So unless they are also selling E-15 it's hard for a company to sell ethanol free gas without breaking the law.

Interesting read on the E-15 crap the gubmint (liberal EPA) is pushing so hard...... Besides damaging engines it delivers at least 10% worse mileage

INSIGHT-Ethanol lobby sees red over a yellow gas hose in Kansas
Thu, Jun 6 2013


By Cezary Podkul

NEW YORK, June 10 (Reuters) - At a handful of gas stations in eastern Kansas, the intensifying fight between major oil refiners and the ethanol industry over the future of America's fuel supply has found a new focus: the color of the gas hose.

Scott Zaremba, owner of Lawrence, Kansas-based Zarco 66, says he is being forced by his main fuel supplier, Phillips 66 , to stop selling gasoline blended with 15 percent ethanol, the maximum level currently allowed for use in normal car engines but higher than the 10 percent norm.

Zaremba, the first retailer in the country to sell the so-called E15 fuel, has found himself caught in a fierce market-share battle between ethanol makers and oil companies that is also being fought in the courts and in the U.S. Congress.

On April 1, Zaremba received a notice from Phillips 66, the nation's third-largest refiner, that he could no longer sell the E15 fuel from his regular black fuel hoses, as he had been selling it since last July.

Instead, any gasoline with more than 10 percent ethanol has to be served from a separate, yellow hose, according to a copy of the Phillips 66 guidelines seen by Reuters. The aim is to distinguish E15 from other Phillips 66-branded gasolines with 10 percent or less ethanol.

He has other options, but they aren't cheap - or very feasible. For example, it would cost $100,000 to $250,000 to install new stand-alone gas pumps for E15, Zaremba said. Or he can always pay a $412,000 fee to Phillips 66 to break his marketing contract - expensive options that have so far kept him in compliance with the Phillips 66 guidelines, the only way he said he could.

In April, Zaremba began phasing out E15 sales, leaving only some two dozen stations in the country that sold the blend as of the end of May, when the last of his eight stations gave up the fuel.

"They're just holding you to your 10 percent max," he said.

Asked about its new guidelines, Phillips 66 Spokesman Dennis Nuss said in a statement that they were simply part of an occasional update to its brand standards meant "to ensure a positive and consistent customer experience at the pump."

The Environmental Protection Agency, which administers fuel standards, declined to comment on Zaremba's situation.

The market-share fight is the result of the 2007 Renewable Fuel Standards law, which mandated the blending of gasoline with renewable fuels like ethanol.

Congress's goal was to make the U.S. less dependent on foreign oil by putting more home-made renewables into gasoline - from 9 billion gallons in 2008 to 36 billion by 2022.

The increasing annual targets were based on expected growth in fuel demand that would allow more gallons of ethanol to be blended without increasing its share of supply.

Instead, thanks to the 2007-2009 recession and rising fuel efficiency, consumers are buying less gasoline than expected.

That has left oil companies actively trying to repeal those blending requirements, while ethanol producers are fighting to keep them in place.


'ALL-OUT WAR'

In the country's heartland, ethanol proponents say refiners are resorting to technical rule changes and brute market force to keep E15 out of gas stations.

In nearby Iowa, eight retailers who want to sell E15 say they can't even make it because oil companies won't sell them the ingredients necessary to make the appropriate summer blend of the fuel, according to a petition viewed by Reuters.

"They've essentially declared an all-out war (on E15)," said Monte Shaw, Executive Director of the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association, which represents ethanol producers.

Phillips 66's Nuss said the company has 945 marketing customers like Zaremba covering more than 7,000 gas stations and has received no other complaints about the guidelines.

"We strenuously deny any suggestion that our actions are part of a larger effort to frustrate the adoption of the Renewable Fuel Standard," Nuss said.

Oil producers say they are just doing the responsible thing - holding firm to a 10 percent maximum blend of ethanol in gasoline, or E10 - because anything more than that can cause engine damage in many vehicles on the road today.

"We are not about to put something out there that we don't think is safe or reliable for the consumer," said Charles Drevna, president of American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers, which represents refiners like Phillips 66.

The EPA has approved E15 for cars made after the 2000 model year. But automakers have not extended their warranties to cover E15 use on pre-2013 models. That leaves only about 12 million of 240 million cars on the road, or about 5 percent, with warranties to use E15, according to a November survey conducted by the American Automobile Association.

"Every automaker with the exception of Porsche said that E15 could void your warranty unless it was a very new car," said AAA spokesman Michael Green.

HEAVY LOBBYING

So far most gas stations have been either unable or unwilling to carry E15.

The Renewable Fuels Association, which represents ethanol producers nationally, estimates that with Zaremba's exit, only about 25 gas stations nationwide sell the fuel - out of about 140,000. Sales of E15 over the last year have amounted to less than one percent of one day's worth of daily U.S. gasoline use, according to Reuters calculations.

The battle is being waged on multiple fronts. American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers recently filed a Supreme Court challenge to E15 gasoline.

The refiners argue the EPA over-stepped its authority when it approved the sale of E15 for only some cars, instead of looking at the market as a whole. "The EPA can certify fuels for engines - not for this engine or that engine," Drevna argues.

A who's-who of the refining industry - including oil majors Exxon Mobil Corp, Chevron Corp, BP Plc, Valero Energy Corp, Tesoro Corp and Phillips 66 - are represented by the group.

In case their legal challenge fails, Drevna says, the oil companies are actively pursuing "legislative" solutions to the issue in Congress.

"It is very, very heavy lobbying right now from all sides and it's going to be at least for another year," said Dave Juday, a commodity market analyst in the Washington area.

MARKET SHARE

The ethanol lobby says oil companies are bluffing.

"What it comes down to is we're coming into their market share," said Michael Frohlich, spokesman for Growth Energy, the ethanol group that made E15 possible by petitioning the EPA to approve its sale.

Profits - more than vehicle safety or performance - are the main reason why refiners are "fighting tooth and nail" to get rid of E15, Frohlich said. If they wanted to, they could easily blend more ethanol into the gasoline supply, he said.

The lobby has one high-profile ally: NASCAR, which uses E15 fuel for "every driver, every lap, every series," said Michael Lynch, managing director of green innovation at NASCAR in Daytona Beach, Florida.

Growth Energy has a marketing arrangement with the car racing group, though NASCAR denies money from the deal influenced its decision to use the fuel.

NASCAR racers have traveled 4 million miles on E15 since the group started using it in February 2011, Lynch said.

He says there's only one reason why the rest of America isn't running on the same fuel.

"The fundamental difference is availability."

INSIGHT-Ethanol lobby sees red over a yellow gas hose in Kansas | Reuters

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RWebb

thx - my dream is to get cheap 100% iso-octane someday...

Why? What would you do with trimethylpentane if you had it?

[RWebb]

you left out the 2,2,4-

I'd have fun...

BTW don't blame EPA for doing what Congress mandated...

[cashflyer]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

If a refiner (like Valero) can't prove to the gubmint that at least 10% of all the fuel they sold was ethanol they get in really, really big trouble.

So unless they are also selling E-15 it's hard for a company to sell ethanol free gas without breaking the law.

Wouldn't their sales of E85 give them a lot of margin to sell E0 gas and still be compliant?

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

Wouldn't their sales of E85 give them a lot of margin to sell E0 gas and still be compliant?

Yes.
But the consortium is trying to dig in their heels and not sell E-85.
Part of that is they are really scared of all the lawsuits when people get burned up in car fires and huge class action suits when engines start dying left and right and the manufacturers won't warranty them because the crappy fuel killed the engines.

That and none of them want the reputation as the company that sells garbage fuel that doesn't make very much power and doesn't get good mileage.

The irony is that two of the oil companies fighting E-85 MAKE ethanol.
They make the crap and still don't want to sell it at 15%.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RWebb

you left out the 2,2,4-

I'd have fun...

BTW don't blame EPA for doing what Congress mandated...

OK, not sure what kind of fun you could have with it, you couldn't burn it in an engine.
I can get you iso-butane and alkylate too, but they will be anything but cheap. We make the stuff by the rail-car full to turn straight run gas into premium. Big $$$.

Reformate is the good stuff stuff if you want to blend racing fuel but you'd still have to get ahold of some lead to do it right.

[RWebb]

you can burn it in a special test engine

[onewhippedpuppy]

Funny how the EPA says that 15% is fine but it will void your warranty. That's the government looking out for the consumer!