TWA Flight 800 - Revisited

[sammyg2]

You guys let us know if those black helicopters are really as quiet as they say, ....... if you can.

[VaSteve]

Pat....a plane really hit the Pentagon.

[patssle]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

Pat....a plane really hit the Pentagon.

I didn't say otherwise. Though it is quite interesting how most of the plane disappears in that wreckage.

I'm just saying how any potential video of that event disappeared.

[Justin@Athens]

So, as a student of political science with a focus on terrorism, I can say with almost complete certainty that this was not a terrorism related event. The whole idea behind terrorism is not really to kill, maim, or destroy--but to insight fear in a larger group. So if you blow up a building or shoot down an aircraft somewhere it is scary, but it becomes a great deal more terrifying if you define your target as ie. abortion clinics, or airliners, and publicize your group.

It is extremely uncommon for groups not to take credit for their deeds. The only scenario I can possibly contrive that supports terrorist involvement is a domestic entity taking control of a US military launch facility to field a "missile or other projectile" to down flt 800. The idea is just that, a mere suggestion--although I suppose it could have been done remotely using computers--but probably not in 1996.

The simplest solution is most likely the correct one....who said that? Anyone?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by patssle

I didn't say otherwise. Though it is quite interesting how most of the plane disappears in that wreckage.

I'm just saying how any potential video of that event disappeared.

It's not like everyone there had cell phone cameras at the time. The videos of the crash were taken from security cameras on gov't. bldgs, so of course, the gov't. has custody of the footage. What are you suggesting? The plane didn't really crash there? Anyone who lives in that area (I did) saw the wreckage and damage to the bldg. every time they drove to/from work. It was just a little too big to throw a blue tarp over the mess while they cleaned it up and kept onlookers away.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by patssle

I didn't say otherwise. Though it is quite interesting how most of the plane disappears in that wreckage.

I'm just saying how any potential video of that event disappeared.

The Pentagon is made of a ****ton of concrete and stone. They didn't use much metal like a modern building since it was built in WWII.


There's a lot of deniers since it wasn't filmed as broadly as the WTC crashes. There was a plane. I saw it.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by MRM

But the question remains, if it wasn't an accident, then who did it? If it was terrorism, who would do it and why would they keep quiet about it for so long? Could a terrorist group stay quiet this long? The purpose of terorism is to terrorize. I never got why a terrorist would blow up the plane without claiming credit. In the book Night Fall they theorized that bin Laden might have shot the plane down with a missile that didn't contain an explosive head and had some purpose behind not claiming responsibility. I think it was something along the lines of wanting the government to know he was after American interests but that he didn't want it public so he could maintain his relative anonymity. I guess it's possible, I just don't know.

So that raises the next question, if it wasn't an accident and it wasn't a terrorist, then what else could it be? Is it possible it was some sort of government missile fired by accident or that went off course and homed in on a civilian airplane by accident? I have no idea whether such a thing is even possible.

Eyewitness testimony is compelling but highly unreliable. But that doesn't mean that it can be disregarded. It just means that you have to coroborate the eyewitness testimony with independent evidence. And here there is independent evidence that could be seen as corroborating either version of events. I don't believe in conspiracies either, and I suspect there is none here, but I simply have to say that based on the available evidence, I just don't know one way or another.

While stipulating that it was not an accident there is another scenario. It could simply be that some nut-bag got ahold of a stinger...

I can see why the government would not want us to know those kinds of weapons are floating around out there.

[Cajundaddy]

I clearly remember the flight 800 crash and the NTSB investigation that followed. It didn't pass the sniff test to me at the time and I suspect there is a lot more to the story we may never know. It happened about 3 months after my dad was killed in a plane crash so I had a heightened awareness for all things aviation at the time.

In my dads investigation, I believe the NTSB got the facts exactly right and accurately recounted the events leading up to the crash. In Flight 800 it seemed like they took a left turn early on and ignored or discounted some very credible evidence that pointed to a terrorist SAM strike. It would be real interesting to see Bin Laden's Flight 800 files to see if the dots connected.

I remember the account from the veteran P-3 pilot. He was career Navy who had witnessed dozens of Stinger launches in combat and had a bird's eye view of Flight 800. He said it looked exactly like a SAM launch and impact ordinance explosion. This is an experienced combat veteran who was a trained observer, at altitude with the sun on his six. Dozens of casual observers in Long Island confirmed his observation with very similar accounts.

The radar track is inconsistent with the NTSB account of the explosion and rapid elevation rise.

The debris field is inconsistent with NTSB report of the early nose separation.

I tend to agree that if it were a terrorist act, the group would want to claim responsibility but we have had other clear terrorist acts where no one claimed responsibility:

Backpack bombing during the Atlanta Olympic Games. Clearly an act of terrorism but Rudolph never claimed credit or listed demands. Centennial Olympic Park bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2004 Egypt Air Flight 990. The second officer turned off the auto-pilot, throttled down the engines, and deliberately flew the jetliner into the water chanting Allah Akbar! EgyptAir Flight 990 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Boston Marathon Bombing. Two brothers carried out an act of terrorism alone and no one claimed credit until after they were caught.

The simple fact is that there are terrorists both foreign and domestic who do not follow the typical terrorist profile, act alone or in isolated groups and intend to maime and kill Americans or westerners for their own reasons, without claiming responsibility to avoid detection. I think the NTSB simply believed this was not possible in 1996 and eliminated the theory of two wild eyed terrorists in a small fishing trawler or pleasure craft launching a pair of shoulder fired Stinger or Russian equivalent SAMs and successfully achieving a direct hit, downing Flight 800. I trust the original account of the P-3 pilot and I think the NTSB blew this one. We may never know the reasons why.

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

I think the NTSB simply believed this was not possible in 1996 and eliminated the theory of two wild eyed terrorists in a small fishing trawler or pleasure craft launching a pair of shoulder fired Stinger or Russian equivalent SAMs and successfully achieving a direct hit, downing Flight 800. I trust the original account of the P-3 pilot and I think the NTSB blew this one. We may never know the reasons why.

Wasn't it 1996 or, there abouts, when the US equipped the anti Russian mujahadin in Afghanistan with the latest versions of the shoulder fired stinger missiles and trained those people in the proper use of them? And wasn't Bin Laden one of them?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by porwolf

Wasn't it 1996 or, there abouts, when the US equipped the anti Russian mujahadin in Afghanistan with the latest versions of the shoulder fired stinger missiles and trained those people in the proper use of them? And wasn't Bin Laden one of them?

Why would we have done that in 1996 when the last Russians had left Afghanistan eight years earlier?

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Associated Retired Aviation Professionals

Some very detailed observations.
Flight 800 Investigation

You can see from the new plot that if you use 450 ft/sec as the terminal velocity, it will reach the location where it was recovered by the time of the last radar return. The radar distance they computed from the JFK radar shows the aircraft reaching 13,755 feet downrange, yet their graphic shows it hitting 2,000 feet short. It is obvious the graphic was drawn to fit the conclusion, not fit the data.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Justin@Athens

It is extremely uncommon for groups not to take credit for their deeds.

Yea, it's not like we have seen a lone nut with a shoe bomb, underwear bomb or a couple of brothers working alone and in isolation acting out any terrorism.

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

The simple fact is that there are terrorists both foreign and domestic who do not follow the typical terrorist profile, act alone or in isolated groups and intend to maime and kill Americans or westerners for their own reasons, without claiming responsibility to avoid detection.......... We may never know the reasons why.

I agree.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

The Pentagon ........ There was a plane. I saw it.

I saw it too, in the worst computer animation passed off as parking lot video I have ever seen (day after incident- as seen on TV).

Lots of weird stuff on that one, but let's take one incident at a time. They are not all the same.

[VaSteve]

Quote de VaSteve

The Pentagon ........ There was a plane. I saw it.

I saw it too, in the worst computer animation passed off as parking lot video I have ever seen (day after incident- as seen on TV).



Lots of weird stuff on that one, but let's take one incident at a time. They are not all the same.

Hey George....why don't you just **** off and die? Take your conspiracy theory and cram it up your ass.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by porwolf

Wasn't it 1996 or, there abouts, when the US equipped the anti Russian mujahadin in Afghanistan with the latest versions of the shoulder fired stinger missiles and trained those people in the proper use of them? And wasn't Bin Laden one of them?

I don't think the range of a Stinger missile would have enabled one to be used in the Flt 800 incident.

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by IROC

I don't think the range of a Stinger missile would have enabled one to be used in the Flt 800 incident.

That is a matter of great debate. According to Army officials, it would certainly be a long shot, but not an impossible shot. Other shoulder fired SAMs from Russia and China also have longer range.

Howstuffworks

[URY914]

You would think if it was fired from a Navy ship by accident some member of the crew would have come out by now. He would be looking to cash in and make a few bucks. Money is the reason I think most crazy theories are BS. No one can keep a secret these days when so many places will buy your story.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

Hey George....why don't you just **** off and die? Take your conspiracy theory and cram it up your ass.

Did I hit a nerve?

I've never been able to find anything on it on-line until today, oddly enough.

Video of the Attack
Pentagon Attack Frame-Up

In March 2002, 5 frames from a video surveillance camera were released.
This is the only public video of the attack.

Why didn't they release the in-between frames?

How many other Pentagon cameras captured the attack?

Why is the timestamp on the images incorrect?

RE: Why didn't they release the in-between frames?

I recall quite clearly seeing this video played twice on CNN (on the 12th). It originally had some poorly done computer animation of an airliner which as supposed to be the unedited parking lot camera feed.

Wolf Blitzer turned to his stage hands and said, "that's a computer animation of it right?", followed by a bump noise, the camera moving off of him and some confusion ensued on the set.

Wolf Blitzer then said that it wasn't the right tape they were suppose to show, and there was a mix up. They continued the show with a choppier version lacking the animated aircraft.

Maybe it was something CNN was trying to enhance for the viewers, maybe someone in power realized it wasn't up to snuff and had it pulled.

We will never know, I just wish I had my VCR running at that moment because I've never seen that exact clip again.

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

That is a matter of great debate. According to Army officials, it would certainly be a long shot, but not an impossible shot. Other shoulder fired SAMs from Russia and China also have longer range.

Howstuffworks

Interesting article, thank you for posting it.

[Rick Lee]

Was Bristol Palin old enough back then to have had a hand in this?

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Was Bristol Palin old enough back then to have had a hand in this?

So VaSteve has a panty attack, and you are here to rescue him?

How sweet, why don't you two boys get a room?