Pracitcal Experience With Stand-By Generator

[Seahawk]

We are going to be remodeling our old kitchen and have decided to put in a gas stove, which will be run off of propane (there are no NG hook-ups where we are).

Given that, this is a good time to spec and install a stand-by generator that will also be propane fueled. We lose power, often for extended periods two to three times a year. I have gas powered gens that I use now but with the kids gone my wife and I travel more and the security of not having to race home to save the basement (two sump pumps) and our food makes sense to us.

Does any one here have any practical experience with LP generators? Above or in ground tanks, sizing the tank for extended outages, where did you locate the generator, etc?

I did a search and found a few old threads, nothing to detailed. I have been researching the various brands and sizes I'll need to power the house, including a/c but I am really looking for practical stuff and experiences:

Would you do it again?

Make any mistakes, something I can learn from?

Thanks in advance.

[widgeon13]

We have a Generac 15Kw and wouldn't be without it up here in the Adirondack Park. We have been w/o power for a week at a time and did not run out of fuel. Tank is above ground and approx 4 ft tall and 3 ft across. Not sure of the actual volume. It is located about 80 ft from the house and while it can be heard in the summer with the windows open, close the windows and it's not a bother. I run synthetic oil all year but mostly do it for the extreme cold of winter, down to -35. The tank gets topped off every month. The generator cycles once a week for 15 minutes just to check the system. We have installed transfer switch so it is all automatic. Power goes off, within 30 seconds the generator kicks on and we are at full house service. We also have gas stove but I have not tried running the clothes dryer, just never been an issue.

[Gordo2]

My parents put in a propane unit about 3 years ago. They live in NW Ohio and deal with hot summers and brutal winters and wanted something to keep the heat & A/C going in the event of a power outage.

Last year when we had the crazy storm that flew through the midwest and hit the east coast ("Dorachio 2012") they lost power for a week and a half.

They were gone when the storm hit and I was traveling to their place 2 days after the storm. When I got there, the generator was up and running, powering everything in the house (A/C, fridge, etc - the powered clocks weren't even reset). Meanwhile the temps were in the the mid to high 90's with high humidity - no problem, the generator hummed a bit louder when the A/C kicked on.

My parents arrived the day later and ended up getting my family together at their place the next day - oven, microwave, people in and out of the house, no problem. The power came back on a week and a half later; only noticeable because the generator shut down.

After it shut down, my dad called the company to see if they should come and check it/do any maintenance. They said they would, but really didn't need to.

I think he paid ~$10k including installation (don't recall the manufacturer, it was connected to a 500 gal buried propane tank).

When I get into a "permanent" home (and a bit older when it becomes less roughing it and more threatening) - I will definitely buy one.

Good luck,
Gordo

[beepbeep]

I got used 5kVA server UPS for free. Dunno how much your pumps and fridge(s) draw but I reckon 5kVA should be plenty enough, especially if you use a couple of truck batteries instead of small jobs inside the UPS.

Pros: doesn't make noise, protects the line from transients, kick in instantly and pulls up the voltage if needed.
Cons: you might need big batteries if you plan to draw lot's of current

[tadink]

A couple of strategies come to mind:

1. do what you are thinking about with propane, we use our regular tank that is for the house also plumbed to provide for the genset - the electrical switchgear and interface with the utility will be key. You want something that is able to come on immediately (without your help) and that will turn off when grid power comes back. We've got such a setup in Napa and it works great, sized for your load is key.

2. investigate batteries + solar. Similar in function to above, without having to worry about running out of propane. Perhaps easier to permit depending on your location. You'll have the benefit of solar all the, and with the added battery backup you will have power when the grid goes away. Fewer moving parts, much quieter, a bit more elegant, provides a return on your investment from day one vs. a sunk cost that you only benefit from when the power is out.

3. Think about solar Hot Water at the same time - stupid simple technology that provides your hot water for free, essentially. You will still have your original fuel source (gas or elec) as a backup. Couple of 4x8 panels (size of the collectors) and you are all set.

Your mileage may vary -

TD

[scottmandue]

What is the budget on a diesel rig?

How many KV's for:

Five people, two bathrooms, two fridges.

Say for two weeks max.

I live in the city so propane isn't practical.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by tadink

A couple of strategies come to mind:

...investigate batteries + solar. Similar in function to above, without having to worry about running out of propane. Perhaps easier to permit depending on your location. You'll have the benefit of solar all the, and with the added battery backup you will have power when the grid goes away. Fewer moving parts, much quieter, a bit more elegant, provides a return on your investment from day one vs. a sunk cost that you only benefit from when the power is out.

I had not really considered this route, but after some research there may be a mix of solar and genset that may work. Our problem is hurricanes and the fact that our farm is the last stop on the grid...even a winter storm will drop power for days due to trees falling on power lines.

Originally Posted by scottmandue

What is the budget on a diesel rig?
How many KV's for:
Five people, two bathrooms, two fridges.
Say for two weeks max.
I live in the city so propane isn't practical.

I currently have three generators. One is an old Craftsman Vantage I bought 18 years ago (still runs like a dream - I replaced all the fuel lines this past weekend and it started second pull) that is 5kv. It will run all the essentials you mentioned above, no worries. Make sure you can run water, which for us (horses other farm animals, is essential).

I also have a Honda powered generator (Huskvarna) rated at 10Kv. I can plug in directly into the electrical switch gear we had installed and run just about everything at the house except HVAC and water heater.

I have a PTO powered generator that runs off the small tractors rated at 15kv. It also plugs into the electrical switch gear. Not an automatic process but simple enough. This gen is also used a lot around the farm for multiple power tools, compressors, nail guns, etc.

My issue is remoteness and the fact that my wife and I both work and travel quite a bit. The solar with existing gen back-up once I get home is worth looking at. It is absolutely essential to run the sump pumps in the basement.

Thanks, all.

[tadink]

HI Again -

The switchgear I mentioned and you refer to in your response is isolating switchgear that keeps the power you are generating from feeding back onto the grid during an outage. It is essential to keep the utility workers from danger....and it will be very important for your utility. I presume you have already been down that road....?

Let me know if you need a referral to a solar contractor, I'm in the biz and can make some inquiries in your area if you wish? Yours will be a bit out of the 'norm' for many of the volume solar guys out there....but I'm sure there is someone who has the expertise in your area to handle your needs.

best

td

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by tadink

The switchgear I mentioned and you refer to in your response is isolating switchgear that keeps the power you are generating from feeding back onto the grid during an outage. It is essential to keep the utility workers from danger....and it will be very important for your utility. I presume you have already been down that road....

Absolutely. Installed by a pro, separate fuse panel, etc.

Originally Posted by tadink

Let me know if you need a referral to a solar contractor, I'm in the biz and can make some inquiries in your area if you wish? Yours will be a bit out of the 'norm' for many of the volume solar guys out there....but I'm sure there is someone who has the expertise in your area to handle your needs.

TD,

Thanks. I'll send a PM.

Best.

[Scott R]

I'm guessing the cause of your outages is likely weather related, in that case shy away from PV. My PV system becomes very inefficient during bad weather, snow and overcast skies drop the efficiency by more than half. Batteries last about 12 hours when they are new.

Another thing people don't consider is damage to the panels living out in rural areas. I've lost a bunch to hale, a few to wind and flying objects, and they are not cheap to replace.

I think your propane solution is a fantastic idea really. Will keep you up and running though the worst blizzard I would imagine.

[VincentVega]

Good thread. I'm in a similar boat, looking at a propane unit for the same reason. My primary concern is real world fuel consumption, nothing like have a 20kw unit with no fuel. My primary interest is keeping the well pump, fridge and the basic's going.

The portable works fine for now but I learned last fall during Sandy that gas isnt always available.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Scott R

Another thing people don't consider is damage to the panels living out in rural areas. I've lost a bunch to hale, a few to wind and flying objects, and they are not cheap to replace.

That is my biggest concern. My farm is on the Potomac River and faces south. The roof where I would put the panels would be the first structure the wind hits off the river! Still worth looking at. TD has been very helpful.

Originally Posted by VincentVega

Good thread. I'm in a similar boat, looking at a propane unit for the same reason. My primary concern is real world fuel consumption, nothing like have a 20kw unit with no fuel. My primary interest is keeping the well pump, fridge and the basic's going.

My plan is to spec the tank for two weeks at full usage, fill the tank once a month, etc.

If I go this route I plan on giving the old Coleman away and keep my other two generators...as I mentioned to TD in a PM, there is nothing better than a "layered" defense.

[VincentVega]

Belts and suspenders, I agree.

Please keep us/me updated on what you find. I have a buried tank for the pool heater I dont use that might work, depending on size and cost to plumb the new line.

[widgeon13]

Onan also has an excellent rep for generators. They supply a lot for the RV industry and motorhomes.

[Aragorn]

I only have experience with whole house generators using natural gas. Found a few online sources for how to size with lp:

Generac Power Systems - Generator Sizer

and

Build With Propane - How to Select, Size, and Install a Standby Generator

Generac is the name around here but there are others. I would recommend professional installation just because of what is required to hook one up. Our system hooked up ran around $5k.

Our area had no power for around three or four weeks after the derecho in 2012. My family was ok because the generator ran 24/7 until the power came back on. The smell in the neighborhoods from rotting food in bins attracted some bears from the woods. Total panda-modium I tell you.

[Seahawk]

That's funny and great links, thanks. How big is your gen and what was the NG consumption? A better question is were you on city NG? Would you have gotten a bigger gen in retrospect?

Also, air or liquid cooled? I am leaning towards liquid cooled even though it may be more complicated.

I picked a good day to be home with the flu!

Originally Posted by Aragorn

I only have experience with whole house generators using natural gas. Found a few online sources for how to size with lp:

Generac Power Systems - Generator Sizer

and

Build With Propane - How to Select, Size, and Install a Standby Generator

Generac is the name around here but there are others. I would recommend professional installation just because of what is required to hook one up. Our system hooked up ran around $5k.

Our area had no power for around three or four weeks after the derecho in 2012. My family was ok because the generator ran 24/7 until the power came back on. The smell in the neighborhoods from rotting food in bins attracted some bears from the woods. Total panda-modium I tell you.

[Aragorn]

If I remember correctly, we have around a 30kw unit. I'll check when I get home. Our unit is older so it is air cooled = louder. Sounds like a large lawn-mower running. Our generator has turned on reliably from well below zero to around 100F. Only maintenance I do is make sure the oil is topped off. Once a year the installer sends out a tech to service it.

The bill for running 24/7 for the generator for that month was roughly around $110 (excluding the normal natural gas usage amount.)

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I had not really considered this route, but after some research there may be a mix of solar and genset that may work. Our problem is hurricanes and the fact that our farm is the last stop on the grid...even a winter storm will drop power for days due to trees falling on power lines.



I currently have three generators. One is an old Craftsman Vantage I bought 18 years ago (still runs like a dream - I replaced all the fuel lines this past weekend and it started second pull) that is 5kv. It will run all the essentials you mentioned above, no worries. Make sure you can run water, which for us (horses other farm animals, is essential).

I also have a Honda powered generator (Huskvarna) rated at 10Kv. I can plug in directly into the electrical switch gear we had installed and run just about everything at the house except HVAC and water heater.

I have a PTO powered generator that runs off the small tractors rated at 15kv. It also plugs into the electrical switch gear. Not an automatic process but simple enough. This gen is also used a lot around the farm for multiple power tools, compressors, nail guns, etc.

My issue is remoteness and the fact that my wife and I both work and travel quite a bit. The solar with existing gen back-up once I get home is worth looking at. It is absolutely essential to run the sump pumps in the basement.

Thanks, all.

Give me your usage details, and I'll rough out a system for you. I sell systems like this, but mostly for off-shore and remote locations.

We built 300 Watt, 600 Watt, 1000 Watt & 1500 Watt systems. 120VAC, single phase and a minimum of 6 hours of operation at full load. We also have configurations for 3000 Watts and 8kW, but they require being built into your house circuitry.

The advantage to the last two systems is they are designed to work with the power grid, even selling excess power when the batteries are full. And since you are actually on the inverter all the time, no lights off transfer. You can use it with a generator as well.

I'm planning a hybrid system like this for my house. 72 panels, large battery bank and an 8kW generator. The 8kW will be enough for my house run 18hrs per day and the battery bank overnight. The panels should be enough to handle 60% of my power needs. Won't be cheap, though.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Scott R

I'm guessing the cause of your outages is likely weather related, in that case shy away from PV. My PV system becomes very inefficient during bad weather, snow and overcast skies drop the efficiency by more than half. Batteries last about 12 hours when they are new.

Another thing people don't consider is damage to the panels living out in rural areas. I've lost a bunch to hale, a few to wind and flying objects, and they are not cheap to replace.

In my case I would be prepping for an earthquake... so PV might be a good backup in sunny Socal...

How much would a electrician charge to install a switchgear do you suppose? That might be tricky because if I went PV I would want to "run the meter back-wards" on sunny days but in the event of an earthquake and power outage I would want to disconnect from the grid.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

In my case I would be prepping for an earthquake... so PV might be a good backup in sunny Socal...

How much would a electrician charge to install a switchgear do you suppose? That might be tricky because if I went PV I would want to "run the meter back-wards" on sunny days but in the event of an earthquake and power outage I would want to disconnect from the grid.

The systems we work with are designed for 3 inputs: PV, Generator and grid. They use a bank of batteries for storage.

The 8 kW system uses 24 x 225Watt solar panels, 16 x 12V 250Ah batteries, a hybrid grid-tied inverter. It is 208/240 AC split phase. It should be capable of running a 2K house with a 16 SEER 3ton AC. No electric ovens, stove or dryer.

Any excess power will be sold to the grid.