Tesla on Fire

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by BE911SC

Exactly.

Except when it is Dick Van Dyke's car.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Why go through all the trouble to develop a gasoline fuel cell when that is a non-renewable resource that is only going to get harder to extract and pricier to buy? Doesn't make business sense. You would need to use a renewable liquid fuel like methanol. Or hydrogen made from natural gas power, solar, wind, geothermal, nuclear, etc.

yup

of course, you don't have to crack crude down to get gasoline; if costs rise for crude (a lot) you could synthesize it up from methane - get some nice isooctane or whatever

but, H seems easier to reform now than was thought a couple of years ago; we can get ethanol from plants; get CH4 from fracking, etc.

BTW - I hear the US has surpassed Russia in NG production (!)

[ZAMIRZ]

Nissan, Honda and Toyota are all developing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles that will be on the market in the next 3 to 4 years.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by ZAMIRZ

Nissan, Honda and Toyota are all developing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles that will be on the market in the next 3 to 4 years.

You forgot Hyundai.

Setting Hyundai's fuel cell strategy

[ZAMIRZ]

^It says login required when I click that link, but I'm not surprised.

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Why go through all the trouble to develop a gasoline fuel cell when that is a non-renewable resource that is only going to get harder to extract and pricier to buy? Doesn't make business sense. You would need to use a renewable liquid fuel like methanol. Or hydrogen made from natural gas power, solar, wind, geothermal, nuclear, etc.

You are right it could also be Methanol, or Ethanol or LNG?. Hydrogen has huge storage problems and hydrogen car tanks that are not absorption tanks are another problem. A room temperature atmospheric pressure liquid is just easy and relatively safe to store. Gasoline would come in handy because you could use the already existing pipe line net for distribution and tanks for storage. And gas stations are plentiful. The transition from combustion to gasoline fuel cell would be a cinch and the effectiveness of energy transmission from chemical energy of liquids to electric energy to the wheels would be greatly improved..

[island911]

Originally Posted by ZAMIRZ This company/car is so polarizing. God forbid anybody try to innovate or do something different in this country anymore. Pretty accurate article on what happened and the subsequent sensationalist responses:

Surprise, Cars Sometimes Catch Fire When Crashed! Why Everyone Needs To Take A Breath On Tesla

Whoa - Why the emotional flip response? All I did is question their use of the word 'crash' for this situation of what the driver called running over road debris.
Repackaging the event as "crashed" strikes me as Spin. Wait wait; it Crashes into me as Spin.

To clarify, when I hear/read the word "Crash" I envision hitting something hard enough that the car has a marked decel event (or series of events) - NOT something where I keep driving, unphased, until I notice that the car is running funny, and decide to take the next exit.

But I do see your point - I can image that a trash-romance novelist might write "she gazed her poutful eyes outward as the rain-drops crashed against her bedroom window..." (but I could be wrong)

It's just that when it comes to car crashes, I envision demolition derbies - where, oddly, fires are rare.

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by red-beard

One of my neighbors, a PHD chemist who should know better, was trying to come up with a "Catalyst" which would split Hydrogen and Oxygen for less energy. I tried to explain how it violated the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

hehehe....that's great! A mystery catalyst "splits H2O" with few Joules, then you combine those and get more Joules and H2O again. Energy for free. Perpetual motion, here we come

[stealthn]

Sounds like the fireman need a little more training on electric cars, even when realizing it was a battery fire they still used water...

[island911]

FWIW,

Analysts for research firm Kelley Blue Book said the road debris likely compromised the vehicle's cooling system, leading to the fire.

Per Tesla grapples with impact of battery fire in U.S. | Reuters

That would explain the delay to the rough running and then fire.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by beepbeep

hehehe....that's great! A mystery catalyst "splits H2O" with few Joules, then you combine those and get more Joules and H2O again. Energy for free. Perpetual motion, here we come

no, the chemist was surely talking about activation energy

[RWebb]

Elon Musk says the Model S struck a "large metal object" as it traveled at highway speeds. It went under the car and struck with a force "on the order of 25 tons." He says the estimate is based on the result: a 3-inch hole through armor plate that compromised the car's battery pack.

But from there, he says everything went as it should. The car's "onboard alert system" directed to the driver to stop and get out. The fire was contained by firewalls within the battery pack. Vents in the pack directed the flames down and away from the vehicle.

The fire department followed the correct procedure in trying to deal with the fire by puncturing holes in a protective plate and shooting water into the pack.

[jhc]

Here's a letter from Elon (I had put a deposit down on a model S but changed my mind).

TESLA

October 4, 2013
About the Model S fire
By Elon Musk, Chairman, Product Architect & CEO


Earlier this week, a Model S traveling at highway speed struck a large metal object, causing significant damage to the vehicle. A curved section that fell off a semi-trailer was recovered from the roadway near where the accident occurred and, according to the road crew that was on the scene, appears to be the culprit. The geometry of the object caused a powerful lever action as it went under the car, punching upward and impaling the Model S with a peak force on the order of 25 tons. Only a force of this magnitude would be strong enough to punch a 3 inch diameter hole through the quarter inch armor plate protecting the base of the vehicle.

The Model S owner was nonetheless able to exit the highway as instructed by the onboard alert system, bring the car to a stop and depart the vehicle without injury. A fire caused by the impact began in the front battery module – the battery pack has a total of 16 modules – but was contained to the front section of the car by internal firewalls within the pack. Vents built into the battery pack directed the flames down towards the road and away from the vehicle.

When the fire department arrived, they observed standard procedure, which was to gain access to the source of the fire by puncturing holes in the top of the battery's protective metal plate and applying water. For the Model S lithium-ion battery, it was correct to apply water (vs. dry chemical extinguisher), but not to puncture the metal firewall, as the newly created holes allowed the flames to then vent upwards into the front trunk section of the Model S. Nonetheless, a combination of water followed by dry chemical extinguisher quickly brought the fire to an end.

It is important to note that the fire in the battery was contained to a small section near the front by the internal firewalls built into the pack structure. At no point did fire enter the passenger compartment.

Had a conventional gasoline car encountered the same object on the highway, the result could have been far worse. A typical gasoline car only has a thin metal sheet protecting the underbody, leaving it vulnerable to destruction of the fuel supply lines or fuel tank, which causes a pool of gasoline to form and often burn the entire car to the ground. In contrast, the combustion energy of our battery pack is only about 10% of the energy contained in a gasoline tank and is divided into 16 modules with firewalls in between. As a consequence, the effective combustion potential is only about 1% that of the fuel in a comparable gasoline sedan.

The nationwide driving statistics make this very clear: there are 150,000 car fires per year according to the National Fire Protection Association, and Americans drive about 3 trillion miles per year according to the Department of Transportation. That equates to 1 vehicle fire for every 20 million miles driven, compared to 1 fire in over 100 million miles for Tesla. This means you are 5 times more likely to experience a fire in a conventional gasoline car than a Tesla!

For consumers concerned about fire risk, there should be absolutely zero doubt that it is safer to power a car with a battery than a large tank of highly flammable liquid.

— Elon

[island911]

For the record, ^What a crock of slop^ .. . "25 tons of force" !?!

The fire damage was so severe that No one knows what the initial breach looked like. They go looking (and find) the most wicked piece of road debris they can find and start speculating about it as if certainly fact. Pay no attention to how long that magic piece of road debris has been driven over by masses of gas-powered cars. Listen to the inane "25 ton" claim... but pay no attention to the fact that this magic piece of road debris was not permanently impaled into the magic Model S.

Deflection, I suppose that's a good thing; like the deflection to talk about gas car fires. Pay no attention to the specifics of those statistics; like the massive number of arson car fires (esp UK & Europe) or that about a quarter of car fires originate in the Electrical system.

I'm surprised that Team-Musk doesn't re-air the 1992 Dateline show where they rigged a GM truck with explosives to show (sensationalize) what could happen when side-mounted tanks got slammed by a car at 40mph. (and pay no attention to the fact that the real tank never exploded - or split.)
Slate has a nice article Elon Musk Explains How a Tesla Catching on Fire Proves That Teslas Are Totally Safe

[PorscheA]

I'll take Elon Musk's word over yours (or most anyone else for that matter).

He's a proven genius.

[island911]

LOL

Don't get me wrong, Tesla has a great team, and has produced Thee top-notch electric car, but I don't care for the "Elon Musk show" / spin-cycle.

Clearly others eat it up and ask for more. 'Logic' being: He can't be Bull-Squirting for his massive personal gain - he has a cool car company.

[island911]

This just in... the road debris is suspected to have originate from equipment much larger than a semi-rig. Yes, this debris is suspected to have originated from a high, overhead passing, 787 - which also had a much smaller Lithium battery catch fire.


Hey, wild speculation IS fun.

...and genius.

[gostraight]

Originally Posted by porschea

i'll take elon musk's word over yours (or most anyone else for that matter).

He's a proven genius.

+1000

[Scooter]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney)

Another Tesla Model S has caught fire after a crash. It's the third widely-reported fire involving one of the all-electric plug-in luxury cars in just two months.
All three fires involved some sort of accident. None of the fires occurred in undamaged vehicles, Tesla Motors pointed out.

The latest fire happened in Tennessee on Wednesday. The first fire happened in Washington State in October and the second was reported to have occurred in Mexico later that same month. A Tesla spokeswoman said the automaker is unaware of any other fires in Tesla cars. There are currently 19,000 Model S cars in use globally, according to Tesla.
"We have been in contact with the driver, who was not injured and believes the car saved his life," Tesla said in a statement. "Our team is on its way to Tennessee to learn more about what happened in the accident. We will provide more information when we're able to do so."
The name of the driver and details of incident were not immediately available.
Tesla (TSLA)'s stock has fallen about 7% Thursday. The company also recently reported disappointing third quarter financial results.
In the first U.S. incident, the car's battery was punctured by a piece of metal lying on the road. The Model S' battery pack lies in the floor of the car. When the battery was punctured it caused a fire that consumed the front portion of the vehicle. The fire did not enter the passenger compartment which is protected by internal firewalls, according to Tesla.
The federal government's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration decided not to investigate the Model S for fire safety concerns after that incident. The agency said Thursday that it has not yet determined whether it will investigate following this latest fire.
According to data from the National Fire Protection Association, each year there are about 6,000 passenger vehicle fires resulting from crashes. To top of page


First Published: November 7, 2013: 1:04 PM ET

[jyl]

"We have been in contact with the driver, who was not injured and believes the car saved his life"

There is a Telsa owner who has drunk the Kool-Aid. In a conventional car, driing over a trailer hitch on the road would result in a loud noise and a dent in the belly pan, maybe some damage to an underbody component. Not life threatening.

I think the problem is that the Tesla battery is spread out over such a large area (the whole belly of the car), that it is vulnerable to damage if the car runs over a metal object. How vulnerable? Well, not "very vulnerable", I imagine Teslas are driving over stuff all the time without incident, but certainly much "more vulnerable" than a fuel tank, which is a relatively compact object that is usually packaged up higher, often protected by other components, and can be deformed without being punctured. Further, if a fuel tank is punctured by driving over an object, it often merely results in leaking fuel along the road, not a fire, because you need an ignition source. The Tesla battery, when punctured. seems able to provide it's own ignition source.

There are 20K to 30K Teslas on the road by now, so three fires isn't an epidemic or anything. But maybe they should start developing stylish cow catchers.

"each year there are about 6,000 passenger vehicle fires resulting from crashes"

Assuming 230MM cars on the road in the US, 6,000 fires per year is 0.000027 fires/car-year. Suppose there are 30K Teslas on the road, 3 fires in half a year is 0.0002 fires/car-year. An order of magnitude worse for Tesla?

Edit: actually there are about 18K Tesla model S on the road, since they are selling about 5K/quarter and significant deliveries started 4Q12.