Getting a PPI doesn't seem realistic or possible.

[PushingMyLuck]

Originally Posted by look 171

You think this is frustrating, try buying a house.

Actually, this does remind of of the housing bubble. Remember those articles about buyers baking cakes and sending photos of their children in order to bribe the seller to take their offer? Yea, we all know how that ended. Trust me, I've been around a few bubbles in my days to know when one is brewing, and when to not get caught up in the herd mania behavior.

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

If you are a serious buyer and the seller won't let you drive the car, then there are bigger issues at hand. Show up with cash, tell them if they won't let you drive it then you're gone. If the car isn't even drivable then a PPI probably isn't that important anyway, just assume the worst and bid accordingly. I've had eight Porsches and only had a PPI done on one of them, after you get past the mystique you realize that they are just a car.

I like the idea of showing up with $20k to $25k in cash. This really cuts out the BS, and if the seller has dealt with flake out buyers and/or fake bids on Ebay, he will appreciate the intent. There's something very appealing about hearing "I can drive this thing home with a spare plate 20 mins. from now" This is probably the best way to have some negotiating room, as well. Want $18k? I'll do $15 with this cash right here. For the right seller, he may bite just to end the saga of BS emails from CL, etc. Anyone with a 3.2 doesn't need the $3k anyway.

Originally Posted by speeder

Secondly, the whole $1k ppi talk is just bananas. If you have a modicum of automotive knowledge, you can eliminate most older used cars before you even open a door or hatch. I can eliminate them from 100 yards away sometimes. If a car passes all of the initial sniff tests and drives right, stories line up, etc., then you should be able to find someone local to put it on a rack for 30 minutes and pull wheels off to check brakes, look or leaks, etc.

Do you live in some remote place where there is no one competent to look at a Porsche? If so, I'd seriously reconsider ownership if you do not have the ability/tools/inclination to maintain it yourself. It could be a major drag.

Well, ironically the Zimmerman "holy grail" of PPI sticky posts seems rather limited.
I would really have expected a better checklist from a 10 year old forum.

No, I'm not remote. There are at least 2 shops in my area. More if I expand to 1 hour. But, the cars are often in remote areas. So, I'd have to travel to the car, and then flatbed the car back to my home area for the PPI.

Originally Posted by 911SauCy

His hemming, hawing, and just nit-picky concerns over the most stupid details on 3 very nice examples led to him never buying one...prices were between $14-16k at the time. Now they're north of $35k and he is kicking himself that he never pulled the trigger over small ticket "what-ifs".

If you want a 911 this bad and dont have time for all the other motions, JUDGE THE CRAP OUT OF THE SELLER. Look at everything from his clothing, way he talks/walks, lawn/yard maintenance and overall care of everything he/she owns. This will tell you a lot more than a valve-job on paper a couple years back.

I'm not nit-picking. I'm trying to figure out how people actually get a PPI done, which just happens to be the #1 ad naseum advice given to every person thinking of buying one. Is getting a PPI now considered " nit-picky concerns over the most stupid details"? Your dad sounds like he's got OCD. Not me.

I totally agree on judging the seller. That is how I buy all my used cars. I've bought used cars for 20 years plus. But, MOST 911's are being sold by flippers and internet auctions. There is no way to judge the real seller. That's also why so few have any service records.

Originally Posted by 911SauCy

Just remember...each month you don't own one, the prices are slowly ticking up...

What you're saying is "Buy now or be priced out forever!!"
You know what that sounds like?
Sounds like 2005 real estate before the 50% correction.
Sounds like 1999 dotcom stocks before the 90% correction.
Sounds like 2007 vintage guitars from the 50s. They have tanked 50%.
Same as 60s muscle cars, many of them.
Know anyone who bought AAPL at $700 since it was "guaranteed to hit $1000. AAPL only goes up each day you don't own it"
Yea, I do too. Another 50% correction story that ends in tears.

When people say "911's will only keep going up! I should have bought five of em!! Buy now or be priced out forever" that's a warning sign.
Got one to sell? THAT's when you sell.

Originally Posted by speeder

A good 25 year old 911 should have service records that look like the congressional record. No records or "a valve job a couple years ago" would be one seriously sketchy car. What ever happened to real Porsche owners??

One owner said he just doesn't like to keep receipts b/c he doesn't like clutter.

Originally Posted by Embraer

btw...getting shops to do PPI's is hard these days. they don't want the liability.

Doing a 2 hour PPI takes 2 hours.
Why do that when they can do a 8 hour book job in 3 hours?
PPI is the lowest margin labor they could do.
The ONLY reason a shop will do a PPI is to get more business in the future.
Loss leader. Like $59 brake jobs.

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I've had my 993 for 11 yrs, DIY everything and I still have a near milk crate's worth of receipts, maint log book and even a computer file of photos of me doing the work. But I'll never sell it, so he records don't mean much.

One seller told me he saved no paperwork b.c he never planned on ever selling the car. Then, one day, they need to sell the car.,

Originally Posted by RANDY P

So far out of that last deal I've had to fix a sunroof, head light adjusters and seat mechanism, and a blower resistor. About $200 in misc. parts and a few hours of work..Car runs perfect otherwise, no oil, no smoke no nothing. 150K now.
rjp

Type?

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Back to the OP, where are you located? Maybe you could find a friendly pelicanhead to check the car out with/for you. Obviously some of these guys have Porsche juice pumping in their veins.

In the NY/NJ/CT area.

I do agree with the point made that a good deal is going to fly and you need to roll the die (b/c someone else will)
$18k car. No PPI. Take it or leave it,
$25k car. Lots of time for PPI.
That's a good point to note.

[Embraer]

well, I think if you knew much about 911's you wouldn't have to waste your time posting here. you seem to know a lot about cars based on the post above

[speeder]

What Bill said in post #22 about "head studs" is mandatory for all SC's (and maybe some 3.2 cars too - what say you brain-trust?)

There is absolutely no difference in quality between Carrera and 911SC OG head studs. They are all junk. Shawn on this board just bought a low-miles Carrera from another member and removed the VC to find half-studs with nuts on them rattling around inside.

[Laneco]

When we sell a higher value car (like a 911) WE pay a shop to do leak down test and record the numbers. On a 911, we have a valve adjustment done and the shop note the head studs are intact. We provide full disclosure to the sellers and receipts for past work. If we cannot provide the receipt, we do not provide the information that the work has been completed. We vouch for what we know and can PROVE only.

If you want to do a PPI on a car that we are selling, you are welcome to do so. It will be at your expense. I will hold the sale for a couple of business days (3) to allow you to schedule and complete the PPI. I'll even take the car to the shop and drop it off/pick it up afterward, etc. If you cannot schedule it w/in 3 days, I understand...but I will keep the market open on the car as I have it for sale because I'm trying to SELL it. Example, if you cannot get the car in for a PPI for a week and another buyer comes along to pay an agreeable price, I will offer you first chance to take the car as is - and if you decline, then I would sell it to the buyer who is opting to take it now.

This might sound unreasonable to a buyer, but within the idea of me selling my car, which is why I entered the vehicle in the marketplace, this allows me to honor reasonable requests (and take the vehicle out of "sale" for 3 business days to allow a PPI) but does not inhibit me from selling the vehicle to a knowledgeable buyer who is comfortable making the decision with the tools/and/or/experience that they already have.

Also, a word to the wise with a PPI... Unless you SPECIFICALLY request it and pay add'l for it, you will not get the head studs examined. I consider this mandatory on all 3.0 (lacking receipts for a recently done head stud replacement) and even on 3.2's. Seeing more 3.2's with broken head studs. Unless there are receipts to the contrary from a reputable shop, an absolute fire sale price, or an actual physical examination - figure the worst case - they're broken. I'm 3 for 3 (broken studs) on used 3.0 engines.

angela

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Embraer

well, I think if you knew much about 911's you wouldn't have to waste your time posting here. you seem to know a lot about cars based on the post above

Yeah, odd thread. The original post screams non-DIY expert, but in the reply he's an expert. Hard to find Porsches near NYC? Please. Try finding 911s near Kansas.

Originally Posted by speeder

There is absolutely no difference in quality between Carrera and 911SC OG head studs. They are all junk. Shawn on this board just bought a low-miles Carrera from another member and removed the VC to find half-studs with nuts on them rattling around inside.

Yup, and he was able to tell by inspection that the car was good enough, and that anything he encountered was fixable without losing his ass. That's how you have to approach a DIY PPI.

[Hads930]

To the original poster you must have a ton of money. You must remember you are on an enthusiasts site where they also sell parts, what does that tell you about the people that post here? Most of us are passionate about our cars, do some level of DIY, and would like to purchase a clean and immaculate car, so snatching the first one off of EvilBay is not high on the list of priorities. Let me give you an example of why you need a PPI. A friend of mine is a stay at home mom who has a wife in the banking biz and I would guess her income is 750K+ per year. They wanted a cab and he found a very cosmetically clean 91 cab, first thing I told him was get a PPI. The dealer that had it in upstate NY said he would ship it to him and give him a week return no questions, what could go wrong right??? Calls me a month or so later has a vibration and clutch has issues. Pull the motor, bad clutch, leak down because the mechanic said the car did not pull like it should. 13K later he had the car he thought he was buying. Valves, stem seals, head work, etc.

I am not in that world financially where 13K for my 3rd car would be real appealing. I have a primo 930 with less than 30k miles. I lost the clutch, pulled the engine myself, and found a broken head stud. I had never done anything but light mechanical work on this car but do have some pretty good skills on American iron. I did business with Pelican, EBS Racing, Turbo Craft, and Billy Boat. All of these guys in my opinion have been good to DIY Porsche guys and were happy to answer my novice questions. I did nothing exteme on my car and spent close to 8K in parts and machine services, and only had help timing cams and setting valves from a fellow Pelican to put it back together. This would have cost me probably 12K+ if I had to pay someone.

If this is what you are prepared to do, go ahead and buy a car with no PPI, if not, stay patient and wait for the right car to come to you.

[PushingMyLuck]

Hads,

No need to sell me on a PPI.
I am trying to make one happen, not justify it.
I have basic DIY skills, but have zero experience with 911s.
I have the garage space to change a spark plug or window regulator or shock, but not drop an engine.
Spending $500 on a PPI to avoid a $25k money pit disaster is a no-brainer for me.

Your friend paid $13k for a top end rebuild?
I thought that was closer to $7k, while a full rebuild was $15k.

[KNS]

Sometimes you get lucky and find a seller true to their word. When I bought my 993 earlier this year I gave the guy a $500 deposit while I arranged a PPI. The PPI was out of my area and a pain in the ass to get done (the seller dropped the car off, though). He promised not to sell the car to anyone else while we were going through the process and he held on to my deposit. Others were inquiring about the car in the meantime.

As mentioned some shops are getting out of doing PPIs and while mine was not performed very professionally (another story) it told me what I needed to know and I bought the car.
I've had to put a couple thousand into it to get it to where it needs to be (basically return to stock and correct some deferred maintenance), but had I waited to find that "perfect" car I would have missed out on a pretty decent car.

I agree that sometimes you can run into a car that if everything looks right, based on your experience, skip the PPI and buy it.

[RANDY P]

another way of approaching the problem is just watch the forums, in lieu of any other resources I'd trust buying a car here from someone VS CL or worse, EBAY. Nice cars pop up all the time, owned by people who dumped $$$$ into them, and then got tired and moved on.

Here's another hint- scan the West coast and GA. That's where they all landed. In particular I like looking in Portland + WA state and there's an abundance of shops that are easy to get to.

PS- ya, my last purchase was a BMW...With high miles....in a different state.....while I was shopping for ANOTHER car......from a buyer with zero records and only owned the car for several months.......

I paid less for it than your average used Accord of the same era. Said car is now driven daily no issues.

rjp

[Baz]

Originally Posted by speeder

There is absolutely no difference in quality between Carrera and 911SC OG head studs. They are all junk. Shawn on this board just bought a low-miles Carrera from another member and removed the VC to find half-studs with nuts on them rattling around inside.

Thanks Denis...I wasn't sure. I have Anderson's book but couldn't recall the details.

BTW - my first P-car was an '81 SC and after the first year of ownership began to hear the dreaded hissing sound...yup....lower studs...plural.

[MT930]

A PPI is going to minimize your risk not eliminate your risk.

There is always going to be risk, don't let market conditions rush you in to a marginal buy, no matter the deal.

A good car is an asset, a bad one is a liability.

I pasted on cars when looking for mine that in retrospect would have extracted ample cash from my pocket. A good seller understands the need for verification.

It all depends your tolerance for risk.

They are easier to buy than sell.

[RANDY P]

Saucy had it right- with any high miles car you're buying the seller- it's his work. If he's a flake and his stuff is junky, be careful.

Otherwise, drive the car. Does it pull when you hit the brakes? Does it smoke bigtime when you start it up? Is there clanking and rattling around the fan?

Look underneath the car- is the factory stone guard still present at the bottom sills and behind the rear wheels?

Oil leaks- observe where the car is sitting- don't be surprised to find a spot, accumulated oil all over the transfer tubes but a major drool is a no no. if you can lift the car, look at the top and bottom of the cylinder jugs and check for fresh oil leakage.

If you can find a G50 car (1987-up) you lessen the chances of a bad tranny- 915 is notorious for failing if abused and no fluid is changed.

Inspect around the battery, all over the rear engine compartment for signs of repair- no original stickers, repaints, improper rust coating textures, etc. etc.

They really are just simple cars, and the summary is if it doesn't look quite right it probably isn't....

Oh except the L to R mirror alignment- viewing down on the car (standing on a balcony) the mirrors don't line up. Normal.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by speeder

Some of this advice is solid, other is goofy. We're talking about a guy who is not even competent to look at a used car on the street, (apparently), and you're suggesting advanced engine diagnostic procedures and tools?

I just quickly wrote a partial list of basic things anyone buying a vehicle should know a little about.
This is even before spending any money on a PPI.

Advanced tire-kicking means knowing what you're paying for.
My main gist was PUT YOUR HANDS ON IT, AND GET DIRTY.

If he was interested, he'd ask here, or in the tech section, or spend 20 minutes on the internet learning how to use the inexpensive tools.
Personally, I'm a not shy, I'm an information whore and put out. Correct or incorrect. Sometimes unwanted. Else, I wouldn't bother to contribute.

Originally Posted by speeder

And an OBD2 scanner is not going to be of much use on a car that was built anywhere from 7-18 years before OBD2 was introduced.

I did mention "correct or incorrect", didn't I?
Yes, thx for the correction. OBD2 started in 94-95. Even greater reason to learn to sniff a tailpipe.

[Por_sha911]

The only thing worse than being lonely is being stuck in a bad marriage.
I'd rather not buy a car than risk expensive repairs. This is especially true if you don't know the car and what to look for/look out for. I learned that the hard way with a 380SL even though I knew better.

"If you don't buy it now, I've got someone coming back in this afternoon to get it" is straight out of the sleazy used car salesman handbook.

Better to pay extra for a excellent car rather than buying a "bargain" and pouring a ton of money into it. When you're done, you'll have spent more money and time in the bargain then the nice one.

[PushingMyLuck]

John70t, I'd have no problem doing some hands-on diagnostics myself.
I am here to increase my automotive knowledge and wrenching skills.
I am going to look into those tools you linked to.

Great advice about avoiding a bad car.

Lots of great advice in this thread.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

[EMJ]

Originally Posted by PushingMyLuck

John70t, I'd have no problem doing some hands-on diagnostics myself.
I am here to increase my automotive knowledge and wrenching skills.
I am going to look into those tools you linked to.

Great advice about avoiding a bad car.

Lots of great advice in this thread.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

Are you really looking to buy? Seems you just like to collect information.

An old 911 is a car, it's not a space shuttle. Find one you like, check for any red flags, buy it, fix the stuff that needs repairing. Even if it's immaculate, stuff will need replacing. This isn't rocket science - keep things simple. Worse case, plan to do an engine rebuild and allot some cash for suspension refresh and so on.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by EMJ

Are you really looking to buy? Seems you just like to collect information.

An old 911 is a car, it's not a space shuttle. Find one you like, check for any red flags, buy it, fix the stuff that needs repairing. Even if it's immaculate, stuff will need replacing. This isn't rocket science - keep things simple. Worse case, plan to do an engine rebuild and allot some cash for suspension refresh and so on.

Once you get past the "OMG it's a Porsche!" element, you realize that these things make a Ford Focus look like it's from the future. They are simple mechanical devices, and anyone with mechanical aptitude can fix most things on them.

[Macroni]

Bargains... everybody wants a bargain. Unfortunately, they are the cars that need inspection because most of the time in life (mine anyhow) you get what you pay for.

Stop looking for a deal and start looking for an honest car with strong ownership. I tested 3 very nice 915 carreras before I purchased my latest car. None were bargains ($20K to $22K) and I was not looking to steal a car. I must admit the car I bought was from the only owner who resisted a PPI. I felt comfortable doing an inspection.

[PushingMyLuck]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Once you get past the "OMG it's a Porsche!" element, you realize that these things make a Ford Focus look like it's from the future. They are simple mechanical devices, and anyone with mechanical aptitude can fix most things on them.

I hear you. I keep hearing how easy easy easy they are to work on (lack of rust also helps a ton),
but then I keep thinking engine drop is not exactly entry level stuff.
In fact, on a 911, there really is no engine bay.
I'm not even sure how you work on these engines.
So, it seems like you might need a lift to work on these cars?
Does the engine need to be removed for every little thing?

I should start a thread asking people to list the various repairs they've been able to do at home (vs. take to a shop)
It's not really clear what repairs people around here do.
Also, everyone talks about top end rebuilds, full engine rebuilds, tranny rebuilds, etc.
This is hardly beginner stuff. People underestimate just how much experience they've got invested.
One man's "easy" is another man's "Not even a remote possibility with the tools and book I got"

Thinking another way, if 911's are so easy to work on, why are there specialty P-mechanics?
Why not just take it to the local Cleetus? (If they are so basic and simple)
I get the feeling they are not as easy to work as as everyone online says.

[RANDY P]

Have you ever owned a VW bug? If so, you have the same basic idea.

These cars aren't a PITA like a Ferrari. There's no belts, no engine out tune ups, no 5 valve per cylinder head to fall apart.