Unions

[black73]

I saw more companies go bankrupt, not due to poor management but due to union ignorance.

Did the management team receive salaries during that period or did they work for free?

Market forces, local, national and world politics and economics, along with management decisions are what closed those mills. No amount of union concessions would have saved them. Any honest evaluation would show that. But unions make a convenient scapegoat.

There's this little company you might have heard of, Ford Motors, that survived the Great Recession, without a bailout, and is doing pretty well, last time I checked. All of this while using union labor. How does this fit in to your tidy little outdated thinking and doomed to failure package?

[motion]

Originally Posted by black73

There's this little company you might have heard of, Ford Motors, that survived the Great Recession, without a bailout, and is doing pretty well, last time I checked. All of this while using union labor. How does this fit in to your tidy little outdated thinking and doomed to failure package?

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by black73

There's this little company you might have heard of, Ford Motors, that survived the Great Recession, without a bailout, and is doing pretty well, last time I checked. All of this while using union labor. How does this fit in to your tidy little outdated thinking and doomed to failure package?

Now, how about GM?

rjp

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by black73

Back to my examples, because some restaurants have failed, all are doomed to failure or decline. Restaurants operate on a premise that is outdated. Etc., etc., etc.,.......

Etc.,etc/



Really? And that is an unbiased opinion? You were not on one side or the other? Just an impartial observer? Or were you a member of the management team, the people that decide what products were made, how they were made, the QC process, responsible for updating or upgrading equipment to maintain quality, the marketing and distribution of the products, the party that signed the union contract, and the people that made the decisions that led to bankruptcy?

The unions are contracted to do X amount of work for X amount of dollars. How did their ignorance cause all the above factors to go wrong.

I know it is more convenient for you to believe, and try to convince others, so that you don't have to face your failures and your bigotry, that the unions and union workers are two separate entities, but that just is not true.

Throughout the course of this thread I don't think you have posted a single fact-based reply. Nearly all of your arguments are emotional in nature and divert the conversation away from the core topic, as well as perpetuating the "us vs them" union party line. I hate to break it to you, but that attitude is a CANCER to having a successful company. If there isn't a partnership of mutual respect within all levels of the company, at best you will have inefficiency and at worst you will have bankruptcy. How does your attitude help the company to be successful? Because while you can be a union cheerleader all day long, if the company goes bankrupt it ultimately hurts everyone. Suddenly "us vs them" turns into "me", and the union doesn't pay the bills for laid off workers.

[RANDY P]

Federated dept. stores is the only major retailer left with a union. The rest died. Govt. employee unions next, then private unions.

Dead like dead.

rjp

[black73]

What about the thousands of non union manufacturing facilities that have closed or moved off shore? Did union ignorance cause that too?

If I were a CEO of a manufacturing company the first thing I would do is sign up for union labor. That way when my incompetence and bad decisions caused the company to go broke, I could just say "It wasn't my fault, the union did it!" and I would be hero to the masses.

[onewhippedpuppy]

The union extorting higher and higher labor rates and benefits for blue collar work has driven industry to other nations. At my employer, blue collar union labor gets better benefits than white collar college educated professionals, which are still pretty good. You made your bed, now you have to sleep in it.

[RANDY P]

Had it not been for advances in technology, reduced trade barriers and industrialization of Asia and Eastern Europe, unions would be in better shape.

Let's get Europe to start another world war, bomb the hell out of everyone again and that'll fix the problem.

rjp

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Had it not been for advances in technology, reduced trade barriers and industrialization of Asia and Eastern Europe, unions would be in better shape.

Let's get Europe to start another world war, bomb the hell out of everyone again and that'll fix the problem.

rjp

Last time Japan had to bomb Pearl Harbor to get things REALLY moving along.

[72doug2,2S]

Originally Posted by Rick V View Post
No advice but I detest unions. Nothing more than extortion and a safety net for under performing workers.
We have no place for them in today's economy

There's a lot of disrespect for the unions and bosses here. You want to work? You get a job, you get protection and protection ain't free. No one thinks about the union bosses. They've got to eat to. They've got wives and families to care for. Are you say'n they ain't good enough to pay?

[rattlsnak]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

What about that low rent airline that crashed in Buffalo a couple years ago due to a low hours pilot. I think they are still flying. But I want to hear more of what Rattlesnak is talking about.

You will see this more at the regionals than you will at a mainline carrier. The mainline unions are so ingrained in the industry there is no way the airlines could ever run without them. My last company was proudly non union for many years until the manipulation and fear mongering style of management advocated the pilots to vote a union in.

In a true reversal of most industries, many pilot groups that were non union for many years have recently all but a few voted unions in for schedule and job protection issues.

A few true examples of the countless stories I've heard before the union got voted in at my company: Captain is Pilot in Command and responsible for the flight. First Officer notices several flat spots and cords showing on the tire and notifies captain. CPT refuses to write it up fearing that "he will get fired if we don't finish these next two legs". FO refuses to fly the trip because of the obvious hazard and he gets fired.

After a very long day and with 15 minutes of duty left, company insists that crew position the airplane to another airport approx 1.2 hours away. An obvious blantant and illegal trip per the FAA. Crew refuses trip due to duty time regs and they both get fired.

Those are a small sampling of the things that happened before the union was voted in. The union offers legal protection against things like this. Things like that simply will not happen with a union on the property.

And the first instance? He took the company to court and used the whistle-blower defense and spilled the beans on a lot of wrongdoings and he won.. handily..

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Haven't there been multiple accidents in recent history involving senior pilots who have failed recurrent training but been allowed to retake (against instructor recommendation) because of their seniority? I work in aerospace and have spent a lot of time in flight test, I know that experience is not necessarily consistent with ability when it comes to pilots.

I have only heard of one of these instances, (Buffalo Colgan crash) and while that captain had failed numerous checkrides, he was a relatively low time pilot and not very senior.

[SCcaretaker]

How bout we eliminate some of this us vs them animosity here be implementing the following in the real world? Random drug testing, annual tests for competent and relevant skill sets, behavior that commands mutual respect from both sides with consequences for failure to implement such behavior, and hiring practices that will not allow nepotism, sexual favors, illegal drug sources, etc. All, of course, enforced by drone surveillance if voluntary compliance is not evident. And, of course, all the above equally applied to all labor and management, no, no, no, exceptions and done by independent parties subject to the same expectations.