New Study: Electric drive vehicles don’t reduce emissions‏.

[porwolf]

A new apparently serious study concludes that electric vehicles are not reducing emissions when pollution from the necessary additional power plants and their fuels is included into the equation:

Electric drive vehicles don

[Nostril Cheese]

Gee, what a surprise.

[BeyGon]

oh no, nobody has ever argued that before.
and, did you know the universe is really really big?

[aigel]

Key is the location of emission, not quantity. Have you been to the LA basin? Every tailpipe gone will help ...

G

[1990C4S]

It depends on the fuel source for the generator. Nuclear will reduce emissions, coal won't, natural gas will.

There is also a big efficiency increase going from a gas engine to a power generating plant.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Not necessarily. If LA went 100% electric and built two or three coal-fired power plants to supply them with electricity d'ya think the air quality would get better or worse?

[widgeon13]

It's just passing the buck, sleight of hand.

[krichard]

Even if the emissions are a wash at least the fuel source remains domestic and keeps jobs and $$ here...

[island911]

Originally Posted by BeyGon

oh no, nobody has ever argued that before.
and, did you know the universe is really really big?

heh heh heh...

Well, we all know that the people who really REALLY like the idea of magically moving electric cars (or carpets) will point to their superior intentions, when faced with this reality.

[Steve Carlton]

I had a chemistry professor tell our class in 1975 that he thought the hydrogen fuel cell was the best long-term solution. Honda has this FCX on the market, and I'm sure there's batteries in it. What do you think?

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/?ef_id=QypOTtDaFw8AAMJl:20110823152404:s

[john70t]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

It depends on the fuel source for the generator. Nuclear will reduce emissions, coal won't, natural gas will.

Exactly.
But the Coal Lobby=money=propaganda=votes for any political party in a tight race.

Originally Posted by widgeon13

It's just passing the buck, sleight of hand.

Meanwhile, while our own government scrambles to micromanage the population, the single oversea source of most our unnecessary household crap uses zero controls.
Think about that.
A single major source of the world's pollution, while the nations sit by and do nothing.

Zero on container ships as well:
World's 15 Biggest Ships Create More Pollution Than All The Cars In The World - Industry Tap

The oceans' bounty are now dying rapidly because of this coal acidification, while U.S. corporations create temporary digits to keep our overstretched economy afloat.
A man can't fish if there are no fish.

[GH85Carrera]

Hydrogen is a great fuel. How do you get a lot of it? Fossil fuels.

[island911]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

I had a chemistry professor tell our class in 1975 that he thought the hydrogen fuel cell was the best long-term solution. Honda has this FCX on the market, and I'm sure there's batteries in it. What do you think?

Honda FCX Clarity Overview - Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle - Site

The big problem with hydrogen fuel cells is the energy density of hydrogen. (Think Hindenburg.) Compressing it is problematic.

I've pointed to a nano tech before... One that uses carbon structures to pull-in and density the hydrogen atoms. The magic formula seems to be 8-carbons in a molecular chain, which each pull-in 18 hydrogen atoms, and holds them at a point that densifies the hydrogen fuel . .. but not too dense, allowing the hydrogen atoms to be easily plucked off for oxidation. This atomic structure ( 8-carbons holding 18 hydrogen) even has a name - octane. ...hey, that sounds familiar some how.

[1990C4S]

“If we clean up electricity in the shorter term, then deploy electric vehicles, they may produce larger emissions benefits.”

This is a good summary of the study. The efficiency of electricity generation must exceed the gasoline engine by a good margin (to offset transmission costs and losses) for electric cars to make sense.

In the end the car that has the lowest ownership cost will win, which will reflect the energy used by the vehicle over its lifetime. There is no free lunch.

[jyl]

Problem is, the paper itself is not available to non-subscribers. The article writer appears to have only read the abstract or maybe only the press release. I'm not sure if most participating in this thread have even read that?

[island911]

For anyone interested in the numbers, a Hydrogen tank (at 1_atm) would be 3400 times larger than a gasoline tank (also at 1_atm of course) in order to have the same energy capacity.

Compressing the Hydrogen to 2_atm (29psi) and the tank shrinks to only 1,700 times bigger.

Hope that helps.

[afterburn 549]

Poowolf as per the usual is always right on top of things ! LOL
A real electric vehicle could do the job..........But MOST of us know all ready these are only knee jerk reactions .
As long as they have to be plugged into ANYTHING else they are NO better then a 1959 Desoto .
Plus the Desoto will have a resale value when done.
Electrics as we know them right now will leave a bigger carbon footprint then a 1959 Desoto...but the Left has all the answers..LOL

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Not necessarily. If LA went 100% electric and built two or three coal-fired power plants to supply them with electricity d'ya think the air quality would get better or worse?

Better. The plants will be east, in the desert with tall stacks. Electricity can be sent far distances through power lines. Nobody would build the plant in the LA basin ...

G

[island911]

Here is the physics of all of this.

per Wikipedia


Some people believe that battery power will somehow become magnitudes better (and then competitive) if only (???) . . .. and then PROFIT!

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Not necessarily. If LA went 100% electric and built two or three wave powered power plants to supply them with electricity d'ya think the air quality would get better or worse?

I'm not sure how much of our electricity is hydro electric but some of it is.

On a recent trip to Las Vegas they are building solar power plants in the desert.

And then there are windmills.