Considering selling my 911 to buy a ..

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by crustychief

...as well as talking with COMNAVHOMEPAC

Made me laugh. Thanks, Sandy: Here it is COMNAVHOMELANT

Whatever you decide I love the passion for flight.

[p911dad]

I'll add the comment that ownership frees one from having "get-home-itis", which can be a dangerous situation for a low time flyer. "Get-home-itis" to non flyers is what happens when you get to a non-home field, weather is closing in and in your mind you have a need to get the plane back to the home FBO for whatever reason. When you own (and are retired) that urge goes away. You can stay however long it takes for your kind of flying weather to return. No pressure to fly.

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

I own a couple of planes and maintain our company's helicopter. I *think* I have a pretty good idea of the math that goes into these things.

If you are a licensed A&P who can do the wrenching yourself, owning can make financial sense. At 50 hours per year (more than the national average for owners) you can save about $3000 over the cost of rental on a 172 (comparing my actual expenses against our local FBO rental price). But the minute a repair comes up, you are F'd. You'll drop that $3k and more in a heartbeat if there is any repair that is more than a minor fix.

There is some other very good advice in this thread. IE: Do NOT touch your retirement money, and Buy right.

The Buy Right part means that you should have a professional PPO done by an impartial mechanic (never use the seller's mechanic). Research the plane. Check the internet for photos (owners love to post photos) and compare those photos to what you are buying - see what has changed and ask why. Check the NTSB database. Check the logbooks carefully, then have somebody else check them too. A missed AD can set you back thousands of dollars. Order the FAA report on the aircraft and compare the records that they have to what the seller presents. Etc.

I just sold an IFR equipped 172 about 6 months ago for $35,000. It needed nothing when I sold it and the new owner flew to my place in January to buy me lunch because he was still happy with his purchase. Make sure that you are one of those customers who can be that happy once the money is spent.

Experimental airplanes are another consideration. Sure, you can wrench on them yourself and save some money if you know what you are doing. IMO, experimentals require an even higher level of inspection prior to purchase to be sure you are not buying somebody's half-assed, home depot death trap.

(FWIW, I sold one of my Porsches to pay off my biplane, which is experimental.)

some really good advice. i was wondering if you figured in the annual maintenance.
also some good advise, look into going in with one or 2 other guys. put everything in writing. at the end of the year, divide the cost up based on % of hours each uses it.

i did not see what year 911 you have. 911's are going up. its still an investment.

[cashflyer]

at the end of the year, divide the cost up based on % of hours each uses it.

I would like to offer a different suggestion: Each owner writes a check and deposits the check into an escrow account at the end of each week (or month) to cover any hours used, the monthly share of expenses, etc. That way, there is not a big bill at the end of the year and a partner saying, "well, I spent all my money on christmas shopping and I'll have to give you an IOU".

One of our employees just told me in January that he had to drop his partnership with two other guys for something similar to this.

IOUs don't pay the bills. Money in an escrow account does.

[diverdan]

Two of my friends who are very successful dentists, one owns several offices, have given up their passion for flying. They cite the same reason. It's gotten just too expensive. Another friend has blown his inheritance from his dentist father on a small plane. Now his monthly checks don't cover all of his expenses. Another friend still enjoys flying, but each time he makes money because he buys and sells aircraft and cars. All the best to you, but those props can be huge money suckers.

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

I would like to offer a different suggestion: Each owner writes a check and deposits the check into an escrow account at the end of each week (or month) to cover any hours used, the monthly share of expenses, etc. That way, there is not a big bill at the end of the year and a partner saying, "well, I spent all my money on christmas shopping and I'll have to give you an IOU".

One of our employees just told me in January that he had to drop his partnership with two other guys for something similar to this.

IOUs don't pay the bills. Money in an escrow account does.

good idea.
i was thinking what if someone did not want to pay how that could be a problem.
i went up with a friend of a friend that does this. 3 of them own the plane but i dont know the details of how it works. i do know when i went up, 2 of them went with us. not sure if that is part of the agreement.

perhaps you could give him an idea of what they might need for $$ for a year.

[cashflyer]

T77911S - there are a LOT of variables for cost.
One is insurance. The insurance company will price the policy based on the worst of the partners. If a partner is low-time, or has an accident within the last 10 years, or had any FAA enforcements taken against him, then that will make the insurance go up - usually by a significant amount.
Another is the plane itself. This goes back to "buy right". A well kept plane with low time will cost more up front (monthly payments?), but less in maintenance. Most people like this because it's easy to budget for a known monthly payment, but hard to budget for unexpected maintenance.

And while we are on that topic... Let's say you buy a plane that is high time and start flying it. Everybody is putting money in the escrow account like they are supposed to (say $50 per hour), but in the second year the engine is low on power and the mechanic tells you that you need a top overhaul. You've put 100 hours on the plane and have $5000 in the escrow. A top overhaul will cost you around $6k (or more). Now everybody has to decide how to cover the negative balance in the escrow account. 50/50? But Joe flew 10% more than Ted! Will Joe pay 60%? All of this needs to be considered ahead of time, and PUT INTO THE PARTNERSHIP AGREEMENT.

Let's make it even worse. Lets say that in year 2, the engine eats a cam. Now you have to open the case, and AD 2002-19-03 is mandatory. You're looking at around $15,000, $25,000, or on up to $35,000. Your partnership has $5000 in the bank. Where does the balance come from? Keep in mind that you have to keep paying insurance and hangarage fees while you come up with the money to have it fixed. (Partners tend to get pissy when they have a lot of money going out and no enjoyment of the "asset".)

I guess in short, I am trying to say that you all go in with eyes WIDE open, and with a very good contract agreement, because expenses for owning a plane can be all over the board!

My specific costs while owning two different C-172s...
My insurance ran about $600 per year, per plane, with hull value at $30k.
One plane did not need any major work during the 5 years we had it. The other plane needed a top overhaul in year two. I did the work myself and it cost me about $5k in parts for the engine, another $600 for overhauling the carb, and I put new mags on at about $1100 ea. There were several "voluntary" expenses (ie: new GPS) that I paid over the years, but are not relevant for this discussion of ownership costs. An annual inspection will cost you around $500 on a C-172. You can find inspectors who charge less if they offer "owner assist", and you can always find inspectors who charge more. (And depending upon the shop, that $ may not include oil, filters, etc.)

If it were me, I would put ~ $75 into an escrow account for every hour that it flies. This is to never be touched for any reason other than maintenance costs.

(Your contract agreement will have to cover how this money is disbursed if there is a positive balance when the airplane is sold.)

disclaimer: I am not an attorney, and none of the preceding should be construed as legal advice.

[cashflyer]

Oh... to summarize:
Airplane A cost me ~$600 per year. (insurance)
Airplane B cost me ~$4500 per year (the engine repair costs divided by the 2 years we had it, plus the insurance costs)

I don't pay for annual inspections, so add that on top of those numbers.

And I own my own hangar, so that expense is not included either.
T-hangars around here go for about $200 to $250 / mo.

[recycled sixtie]

Shared ownership is complex and dependent on the other partners pitching in with their share of the cost. It seems like it is easy to buy into but could be quite hard to sell your share when it comes to resale. Getting along with the other partners would be essential but you get some strong minded people that could take all the fun out of it.

G.

[recycled sixtie]

If you are looking at IFR equipped aircraft then a Cessna 172 is suitable for training purposes. However for real world actual flying conditions in IFR weather it is not so suitable . They have no wing or prop deicing. The older ones don't which would be in your price bracket.

Buying a C172 may work for a couple of years to build up hours but you could be faced with high running expenses. After a couple of years you could be looking for something faster.

I still like the concept of renting.

G.

[cashflyer]

There's a lot of IFR that doesn't require deice/anti-ice.