Anyone a cabinet maker? I have a melamine/p-lam problem

[URY914]

I turning to the PPOT members for a opinion on a problem that I'm getting mixed answers on. I've been involved with a lot of commercial cabinet installations over the years but I've run into a new problem recently.

We installed 19 wardrobes with a single door which is 6'-2" x 2'8" x 1/2". The Architect spec is for thermal applied "melamine" on the interior surface and glue applied p-lam on the exterior. The fabricator provided/installed according to the specs and the approved shop drawings. The doors are flat with no added stiffeners on the inside. Almost as soon as they were installed I noticed the doors were warped and at the top and bottom the door stands off the box about 1/4". The door is held shut by a cheap little magnet that isn't strong enough to hold the door. The center of the door touches the box, so the doors are warped top to bottom.

The fabricator says that the process of adding melamine to one side of a large surface area results in a warped door and recommends replacing the large singe door with two smaller doors with p-lam on both interior and exterior of the door. Of course this fix is costly. We tried adding a steel stiffener to the inside of the door but it didn't correct the problem.

So my questions are:

Did the fabricator install the melamine to the door correctly?
Is the problem due to the materials and can't be avoided and I need to change the doors?

Here is a pic to give you a an idea of the size I'm dealing with


Thanks everyone

[intakexhaust]

Whats the substrate? Single door dimension like that is no problem. Should be a good piece of MDF.

Also, verify the cabinet face frame, structure squared, properly shimmed to wall installation, etc..

How long has it been like that? New? Old? High humidity?

[URY914]

Whats the substrate? Single door dimension like that is no problem. Should be a good piece of MDF. Yes MDF

Also, verify the cabinet face frame, structure squared, properly shimmed to wall installation, etc.. Yes the boxes are relatively square and shimmed. All the doors have the same problem.

How long has it been like that? New? Old? High humidity? New construction (last year), installed when building did not have A/C on in FL during the summer, so I agree that humidity was a contrubuting factor but not a major one.

Good questions, thanks

[JTO]

Having different laminates on opposing faces is the problem. The warp is being introduced by this difference. Make the laminates the same and the door should be flat. With melamine on one face and a (probably) PVA glue applied on the other side under the laminate is just too different in density and adhesive to allow a flat panel.
I'm in this industry
Troy

[look 171]

Door is sucking up more moisture from one side then due to the difference in the p lam and melamine causing it to warp or cup. Architect kinda screwed up IMO doing it that way.

I hate long doors in time, they almost always warp. 6' max IMO, but architect and designers are always right so any 6' plus doors that that come out of our shop will get a "I told you so" waver" signed by the people in charge unless its the home owner then I try like hell to talk them out of it.

[look 171]

That door should warp, not at that length is p lam on both side.

[gatotom]

Have you tried messing with the hidden hinges. The hinge sets on a plate that can be adjusted taking the warp out.

[lgb240]

Originally Posted by JTO

Having different laminates on opposing faces is the problem. The warp is being introduced by this difference. Make the laminates the same and the door should be flat. With melamine on one face and a (probably) PVA glue applied on the other side under the laminate is just too different in density and adhesive to allow a flat panel.
I'm in this industry
Troy

^^this^^

The substrate needs an equalizer on both sides to prevent warping. Laminate on the exposed side needs an equal laminate on the other side of the substrate to prevent the warping. I'm also in the industry and this is pretty basic cabinetry construction.

To answer your question, the fabricator didn't build the doors correctly and should be on the hook for replacing them. There is very little if anything you could do at this point to straighten them. The size of the door isn't the issue. Making new, smaller doors without equalizing the laminate on both sides will also result in warped doors.

[URY914]

Thank you everyone. Sounds like the spec is wrong and the fabricator should have known better and raised the issue before making them.

I don't like the the doors being that wide in the first place. They take up too much real estate when they open.

I going to get prices for a replacement single door with p-lam on both sides and a price for two doors with p-lam both sides. Live and learn and pay for the fix.

I wouldn't be getting any dollars back from the Architect. On a situation like this I'll pay for the fix but I'm not going to allow any markup/profit on the cost of the fix. I don't want to have someone making money on corrective work.

Thanks again,

Paul

[sc_rufctr]

Is it worth taking the door off and trying to straighten it?

Lay it flat supported at both ends, Then load up the middle with some heavy books. Put a decent bow in it.
Leave for a few days until it stretches the outer laminate a little.

You'd get it straight by doing this and then you could reattach the steel stiffener using extra screws.
Or maybe some stiffening ribs made of clear hardwood on its edge?

Sounds like a bit of a "Bodge" I know but it wouldn't cost anything so why not?

I straightened a very warped dinning table like this years ago. It was one of the few things I kept after my divorce.

[JTO]

It will assume the warp again due to the unbalanced faces
Troy

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by JTO

It will assume the warp again due to the unbalanced faces
Troy

Not necessarily. It depends on how much you bow it, how long you leave it bowed and the strength of the ribs.
I'd put a slight reverse bow in it so that the ribs straighten it again.

Hey it's free so why not?

[URY914]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Is it worth taking the door off and trying to straighten it?

Lay it flat supported at both ends, Then load up the middle with some heavy books. Put a decent bow in it.
Leave for a few days until it stretches the outer laminate a little.

You'd get it straight by doing this and then you could reattach the steel stiffener using extra screws.
Or maybe some stiffening ribs made of clear hardwood on its edge?

Sounds like a bit of a "Bodge" I know but it wouldn't cost anything so why not?

I straightened a very warped dinning table like this years ago. It was one of the few things I kept after my divorce.

I would due this if it was a door in my house but this is a functioning nursing home and taking the doors off/on isn't practical. Someone will walk in and see the doors off and the emails will fly all the up to the CEO. I don't need the headaches.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by JTO

It will assume the warp again due to the unbalanced faces
Troy

You might be able to get away with it and get paid, but it will warp in time again.

[dyount]

I'd venture a guess that the fabricator should of sent the spec to a panel providing company to hot press the laminate with v-grade laminate. If the melamine panel had the exterior cover removed to scratch for laminate it'll start to unbalance.
Correct spec in my opinion would be to balance the door with laminate on both sides. Typically it wouldn't be a problem with smaller doors but wardrobe size obviously isn't going to work. Architect might not have experience with laminating doors of that size.
Forget the idea of a counter bow .... never going to work. Cheaper to just order new ones and have euro hinges (4) drilled and you can install them in minutes.

[URY914]

Situation update:

After I emailed the Architect telling him that his spec sucked and caused this problem he replies that the spec calls for p-lam on both sides of the door. Gee, it would have been nice to know that when they were first installed.

Now I get to battle it out with the GC and cabinet supplier.

[dyount]

That's actually good news on your side. As long as the GC/Cab folks got the correct spec drawing or spec book it's on them to do it right. Bad news of course for them but they should of known better than to unbalance a door of that size.
"Back in the day" if I would of been involved I would of put v grade laminate on particle board or MDF on both sides with edge banded matching vinyl.
All that said I can remember a perfectly produced job with similar doors that hung around the shop for months with shrink wrap holding the doors closed. The wrap actually bent the doors over a period of time. ...and that sucked!

[Reg]

Would a friction catch been a better choice than the magnetic type?

[dyount]

I wouldn't go with a friction at all.... too hard to adjust on a door that size. Although they do make magnetics with some serious pull on them I'd still vote for adjustable euro hinges. You can adjust them in all planes direction wise and they'll easily hold the weight "IF" you use the amount specified by Blum/Grass

[look 171]

Originally Posted by dyount

I wouldn't go with a friction at all.... too hard to adjust on a door that size. Although they do make magnetics with some serious pull on them I'd still vote for adjustable euro hinges. You can adjust them in all planes direction wise and they'll easily hold the weight "IF" you use the amount specified by Blum/Grass

No matter how you adjust the hinges, a warp door is a warp door. Its always going to kick out on top or the bottom with a little rub in the belly, so take your pick. if its a little warp, you might be able to get away with hinge adjustment. Other then that, it will be difficult to do.