ON!NARER! (Oh no! Not another real estate rant!)

[Z-man]

I posted on the recent realtor rant that we are in the process of moving, and we have been fortunate to have a good realtor who actually has scruples, and is helpful and sends us updates on time, and is generally speaking, a very helpful agent.

HOWEVER, it seems that the real estate market is just full of games, schemes, lying, and bottom dwelling scum suckers. I feel like I've walked into that bar on Star Wars that Obi-Wan warned young Luke Skywalker about!

So - we are looking to upgrade and move a step out from suburban NJ. Our home is on the market - it is reasonably priced at slightly higher than what other homes are getting in my area due to all of the upgrades we have done to it recently. (new kitchen & baths, new roof, new driveway, new front entryway, new barristers, new downstairs floors...etc. )

But that's not the issue. Our home will sell - it's the other side that smells worse than tooth decay. We are looking for a home in an area of North NJ that while not an exclusive town, does have some very nice developments in it. The bank is willing to loan us a good amount of money, and with the sale of our house, we can buy a very nice home on a nice property.

But the RE games are preventing us from realizing our dream home.

We found a perfect home - but it was only on the market for 5 days before the listing was temporarily removed. So we waited a month to ask what's going on - and the listing agent said that she already has another offer. So basically, we got into a bidding war. Even though we went over asking price, and our offer was higher than the other person's offer, we did not win the contract. There are more details to this story - but suffice it to say, something fishy was going on. Even my realtor feels this. It seems like the plan was to sell the home to the other buyer from the get go - and our offer was never seriously taken into consideration. So why did they have us go through all the motions?

We also found another listing - land that a developer was going to build on. While the listing is 'active' in reality, the land is under contract. But the buyer and builder do not see eye to eye on the type of house to build. Buyer wants a ranch, builder wants to put a center hall colonial on it - like ther rest of the devleopment. Every week, my realtor calls the listing agent to see what's going on, and every week, she gets the run-around. "Call back next week - we'll know then." Here's the kicker: they have been trying to figure out what to build there SINCE NOVEMBER 2013!!! So again, I firmly believe something unethical is going on.

And there are other examples of 'deals' and 'scams' that we have come across.

Now our credit score and our debt to income ratios are outstanding. Our mortgage broker said she is amazed that at our age we are in such a good financial situation. (Tip - old fashioned financial thinking goes a long way - paying off debt is the key!) So we are ideal buyers. And we are looking at homes in the $550k to $750k range, which isn't chump change. So we expect that we would be treated with a little more respect and honestly. But apparently when the stakes are high in the real estate market, the real bottom dwellers come out to play.

I just want a straight-up deal - gonna sell my house, and upgrade to a slightly nicer one. I don't want the BS/scam artist/money hungry leeches. I don't need the drama, and I won't play the stupid game.

Is the real estate market really that bad, or have I just come across a couple of anomolies?

Sorry for the rant, but I am sick of this.

-Z-man.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by Z-man

Here's the kicker: they have been trying to figure out what to build there SINCE NOVEMBER 2013!!! So again, I firmly believe something unethical is going on.

They just don't have a body to bury in the foundation yet!

Sorry to hear all the troubles Z. Sounds like its just the universe telling you to slow down and the perfect house is coming!

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by Rusty914s

Did you offer reflect that you need to sale house a to buy house b?

If not, are you doing a bridge loan?

And then, did you have a pre qualified letter alongside with your offer?

Actually, we had a qualified letter / pre-approved mortage letter. And we actually lifted our contingency of selling our house. No bridge loan - just a huge mortgage until we would have sold our home. Yes - our credit is that good that the bank is willing to lend us that much money. That said, the other offer was a cash offer, so that is slightly better since the bank doesn't need to valuate the house.

-Z-man.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Z-man

That said, the other offer was a cash offer ...

There's your answer. Not necessarily shenanigans, just the seller being more cautious and taking the sure thing.

And the other piece of land, that's been sitting since November waiting on the parties to make up their mind: that might just be incompetence/inefficiency, too.

Keep looking. Eventually you'll find a place where (almost) everything comes together. There will always be another great place for sale.

[greglepore]

Agree with the above. Cash is king. Not having to worry about appraisal etc. Its a little more than "slightly" better.

[look 171]

Sorry to hear about it. Cash is the sure deal and they took it. Keep looking, but be prepare for more of this to come.

[dad911]

If you want to be in Somerset County (Bridgewater) or Hunterdon (Franklin or Bethlehem) shoot me a PM....

[dennis in se pa]

Here is another possibility. The listing agent had a buyer and they wanted to get "both sides" of the commission. Your higher offer would have been better for the sellers, but both sides is better for the listing agent. Real estate is no different than any other sales position....most of those involved are greedy bastards.

[MBAtarga]

Have you looked at FSBO listings? You might find a deal that avoids the agent commissions.

[Dantilla]

Before the real estate boom, I was having fun flipping fixers. the key is to make an offer with no contingencies.

-No financing contingency
-No contingency of selling the current house,
-I went as far as no inspection contingency. I'd bring a friend to look with me (and I'd look at houses for him- extra set of eyeballs) and if it looked like a money maker, I'd make a cash offer, and I could close as soon as docs are ready to sign.

Twice, I snagged a house its first day on the market, closed in less than a week, and after it closed, the sign guy got around to putting up the "For Sale" sign in the yard. I promptly yanked it out to keep the looky-loos from peeking in the windows.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by Z-man

...we waited a month to ask what's going on - and the listing agent said that she already has another offer. So basically, we got into a bidding war. Even though we went over asking price, and our offer was higher than the other person's offer, we did not win the contract.

I have been hearing about these "bidding wars" for at least a couple of decades.

In the past, didn't the person/s who signed a contract first get the house unless their financing didn't go through?

When did this competitive bidding enter the picture?

Is it different in different states? Or did it begin in some states and spread to others?

It seems like it opens things up to dishonest deals through shill bidding or some other similar technique that I'm not skeevy enough to even imagine.

Z, best wishes on your search... I hope you're able to nail down a home you love soon.

[gprsh924]

When no contract has been signed, but multiple offers have been submitted on the house, you get a bidding war.

[Deschodt]

I sold my house recently. Having been on the buying side (and on the rejected offer side), I understand how you feel and sympathize. It does feel like a serving of BS.

But you gotta understand how this works... In the current market, loans are not as easy to get as before regardless of your credit (more paperwork, more checks and balances post meltdown). It takes loooonger, sometimes 45 days to 2 months. Makes it hard to compete with cash offers.

Also, the appraisal is becoming a pain. Appraiser in some states are randomly assigned by banks, if one drives in from "bum****" (outside your cool neighborhood) and thinks your target house should be worth 20% less because he is not a *local* expert, you are screwed... At best, more delays... My agent said they lost a lot of deals that way, even when the buyers were half cash and the bank risked NOTHING.

Add in all the inspections people do these days (we got 4 termite inspections, 1 radon, one soil, and a survey - and it was a great house). As the seller, it's a gigantic pain in the a$$ because you don't wanna move a single piece of furniture until the contingencies are removed !!!

The buyer that comes in cash, with super short contingency removal.... wins ! If you can't beat cash offers, think about very short contingencies, that might help you ! As the seller, we got lucky and got 3 offers and a mini bidding war (that we had nothing to do with, other than pricing too low?). Personally I felt really bad for the people whose offer we did not choose, because I've been there. But the guy that came in 80% cash won over the nice folks who were financing the house, and financing their deposit elsewhere... All the above hassles evaporated (except for the inspections).

Sadly, real estate is the perfect illustration of capitalism. Offer/demand, and some heavy rigging regular folks can't compete with. Nice guys don't always win. And don't get me started on the house down my street that sold in foreclosure for 30% of its value that NOBODY knew about until it sold. Good luck on your deal !

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Dantilla

Before the real estate boom, I was having fun flipping fixers. the key is to make an offer with no contingencies.

-No financing contingency
-No contingency of selling the current house,
-I went as far as no inspection contingency. I'd bring a friend to look with me (and I'd look at houses for him- extra set of eyeballs) and if it looked like a money maker, I'd make a cash offer, and I could close as soon as docs are ready to sign.

Twice, I snagged a house its first day on the market, closed in less than a week, and after it closed, the sign guy got around to putting up the "For Sale" sign in the yard. I promptly yanked it out to keep the looky-loos from peeking in the windows.

Damn, those days are long gone.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

I have been hearing about these "bidding wars" for at least a couple of decades.

In the past, didn't the person/s who signed a contract first get the house unless their financing didn't go through?

When did this competitive bidding enter the picture?

Is it different in different states? Or did it begin in some states and spread to others?

It seems like it opens things up to dishonest deals through shill bidding or some other similar technique that I'm not skeevy enough to even imagine.

Z, best wishes on your search... I hope you're able to nail down a home you love soon.

Seller accept offers but they sit on it and wait for more offers to come in after an open house, then comes back with this as their counter " We have too many offers on the house, please submit your best and final". Buyers heart starts to pound a little and someone will over bid. For those that have been trying to buy, many will find out houses (around here) have been selling for way over the asking. Some agents purposely list them below the market to gain interest and the bidding war begins.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by look 171

Seller accept offers but they sit on it and wait for more offers to come in after an open house, then comes back with this as their counter " We have too many offers on the house, please submit your best and final". Buyers heart starts to pound a little and someone will over bid. For those that have been trying to buy, many will find out houses (around here) have been selling for way over the asking. Some agents purposely list them below the market to gain interest and the bidding war begins.

I know that's the way it is... now.

Was it that way in the '70's? '80's?

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Z-man

I posted on the recent realtor rant that we are in the process of moving, and we have been fortunate to have a good realtor who actually has scruples, and is helpful and sends us updates on time, and is generally speaking, a very helpful agent.

HOWEVER, it seems that the real estate market is just full of games, schemes, lying, and bottom dwelling scum suckers. I feel like I've walked into that bar on Star Wars that Obi-Wan warned young Luke Skywalker about!

So - we are looking to upgrade and move a step out from suburban NJ. Our home is on the market - it is reasonably priced at slightly higher than what other homes are getting in my area due to all of the upgrades we have done to it recently. (new kitchen & baths, new roof, new driveway, new front entryway, new barristers, new downstairs floors...etc. )

But that's not the issue. Our home will sell - it's the other side that smells worse than tooth decay. We are looking for a home in an area of North NJ that while not an exclusive town, does have some very nice developments in it. The bank is willing to loan us a good amount of money, and with the sale of our house, we can buy a very nice home on a nice property.

But the RE games are preventing us from realizing our dream home.

We found a perfect home - but it was only on the market for 5 days before the listing was temporarily removed. So we waited a month to ask what's going on - and the listing agent said that she already has another offer. So basically, we got into a bidding war. Even though we went over asking price, and our offer was higher than the other person's offer, we did not win the contract. There are more details to this story - but suffice it to say, something fishy was going on. Even my realtor feels this. It seems like the plan was to sell the home to the other buyer from the get go - and our offer was never seriously taken into consideration. So why did they have us go through all the motions?

We also found another listing - land that a developer was going to build on. While the listing is 'active' in reality, the land is under contract. But the buyer and builder do not see eye to eye on the type of house to build. Buyer wants a ranch, builder wants to put a center hall colonial on it - like ther rest of the devleopment. Every week, my realtor calls the listing agent to see what's going on, and every week, she gets the run-around. "Call back next week - we'll know then." Here's the kicker: they have been trying to figure out what to build there SINCE NOVEMBER 2013!!! So again, I firmly believe something unethical is going on.

And there are other examples of 'deals' and 'scams' that we have come across.

Now our credit score and our debt to income ratios are outstanding. Our mortgage broker said she is amazed that at our age we are in such a good financial situation. (Tip - old fashioned financial thinking goes a long way - paying off debt is the key!) So we are ideal buyers. And we are looking at homes in the $550k to $750k range, which isn't chump change. So we expect that we would be treated with a little more respect and honestly. But apparently when the stakes are high in the real estate market, the real bottom dwellers come out to play.

I just want a straight-up deal - gonna sell my house, and upgrade to a slightly nicer one. I don't want the BS/scam artist/money hungry leeches. I don't need the drama, and I won't play the stupid game.

Is the real estate market really that bad, or have I just come across a couple of anomolies?

Sorry for the rant, but I am sick of this.

-Z-man.

Could it be moderator karma?
Oh wait that's the other guy

Serial, the lure of easy money draws low-lifes to the real estate bidness like scummy moths to a light.
Where else can someone with very little skilz make tens of thousands for doing almost nothing?


You signed your name, you signed your name, that means I get 3%!

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

I know that's the way it is... now.

Was it that way in the '70's? '80's?

I was in just starting high school during the Boom years in 80s. I am sure they fought for it just like they do today, but am not sure what the methods was to get em'? Anyone else know this? I am interested to know also.

[Z-man]

Went around to look at some homes yesterday - did a bunch of 'drive-bys' Saw some nice ones, and some not so nice ones.

The search continues. Just wish there would be less drama and less game. But I guess I'm asking for too much...

Will keep you folks updated with the continuing drama.

[speeder]

As others have pointed out, there is more to an offer than the exact dollar amount. The highest bid does not win, the best offer wins. You need to find an agent or realtor who knows how to write an offer, if yours does not.

A couple guys I know who rehab/flip houses just bought one in one of the hottest neighborhoods in town, (Larchmont Village), they were not the highest offer. One of the guys is a RE agent and he wrote the offer, here is what you conceivably could be up against:

The house is a tear-down and they paid ~$1M for it. Their offer was not only 100% cash but they released $100k of escrow $$ to seller immediately, a non-refundable deposit if ANYTHING goes wrong and they do not buy it. "Take this $100k, you keep it". Then the offer continues; NO appraisal, NO inspections of any kind and 14 day escrow.

They are tearing the place down so who cares about inspections. I realize that this might seem like an extreme example but the market is impossibly hot in some places right now with tons of pros and institutional investors buying houses. My buddies snagged a property that probably 300 different buyers would have bought for cash that week, they just got there first and knew how to secure it.

It's horrible for people getting bank loans that just need a place to live right now in CA. I've been looking for small investment properties to rehab and it's nearly impossible. I have financial backing and can pay cash immediately, write any contract we feel like writing and it's still tough because of lack of inventory and competition.

Lastly, there is a lot of seriously uninformed advice around here about RE agents, IMO. Yes, many are not worth 2 schits and it's a super-easy profession to enter. But for that reason, they are not all equal and it matters who you use. Using the wrong one to list your house could cost dearly and selling yourself with no real knowledge of the market would be seriously stupid.

I know another guy, (not the ones mentioned above), who is a pro builder/flipper in the upper price range, where the real $$ is made or lost. He's been doing it for a long time and he snags amazing properties in L.A. on a regular basis. The profits are in the millions when he gets the right house and builds what he wants with it. He has been very generously mentoring me about his business and not only do they use RE agents on every transaction, they use different ones for different deals and always try to use the right one for each situation. He told me that ALL good deals come from RE agents, they are the ones who know what's coming online for sale and that establishing good relationships with many of them is THE KEY to his business. Also, he has told me that when selling, there is no *one best RE agent* to list the house with, you need to use the agent that specializes in that neighborhood and is the current hot-shot with all the buyers in their pocket. Using the wrong one is an amateur mistake.

I realize that this is all related to RE pros but some of it applies to anyone trying to buy or sell a house right now. At least in L.A., some poor newb with a bank loan application in their pocket out shopping for a good deal on a nice house is like the person trying to buy an early 911S for a fair price who wants to correspond by email for a week and arrange a PPI. They get their clocks cleaned so fast that they don't know WTF just happened(?)