Open Carry

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Tobra

What is the difference from a practical standpoint between the two categories? It sounds like you open carry a piece either way, but the former requires more training.

Depends on clothing and season. Sort of hard to OC in cold weather clothing. If I OC it's usually only on the bike or on horseback, where it'd be very hard to draw from concealment because of riding gear, even if dismounted. I see OC here fairly regularly. Some folks just refuse to get a CCW because they see it as a gov't. permission slip. Until about four yrs. ago you could not CCW here without a permit, but OC was fine. So a lot of folks did that. Some just don't want to change. I live in horse country, so you see a lot of folks wearing riding gear at a feed and seed place or parts stores OC'ing. No big deal around here and sometimes it's easier than R&R'ing the holster each time to get in and out of the car.

Red, did that penatly change recently? I was last in TX about five yrs. ago and I was very conscious of keeping it concealed when out and about. I also don't know how anyone can know how much of a restaurant's revenue comes from booze vs. food sales if they sell both.

[Z-man]

This thread is a perfect example why a national reciprocity law for carry (CCW or OC) makes sense. Get that going, and states which essentially have no carry laws (like CA and NJ) would be forced to comply, based on the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

National reciprocity would also help do away with the confusing state-to-state laws that turn law-abiding citizens into felons.

Case in point: Sheneen Allen is a lady who is a Philly, PA resident who got a CCW to protect herself after she was mugged three times. She travelled to NJ not knowing that her CCW license was not honored in NJ, since NJ has no reciprocity with any other state for CCW. She was carrying while driving (perfectly legal in PA, but a third degree felony in NJ) when she was stopped for a traffic violation. She told the officer that she was carrying (which is what you are supposed to do when carrying in 'free' states). The officer arrested her on the spot, and she was facing a mandatory 3.5 year sentence with no eligibility for parole. At first, pre-trial intervention was denied, but finally a top 2nd amendment lawyer (Evan Nappen) was able to get pre-trial intervention and the case was dropped. But due to this incident, Ms. Allen lost her nursing license and now has financial issues.

According to the 2nd Amendment, we have a right to keep and bear arms. It should not matter how we do this (CCW or OC), or where we do this (AZ, NJ, CA, TX..etc). but the rules and regulations that pertain to the 2nd Amendment should be the same across our great nation.

Ok - I'll get off my soapbox now,
-Z-man.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Red, did that penatly change recently? I was last in TX about five yrs. ago and I was very conscious of keeping it concealed when out and about. I also don't know how anyone can know how much of a restaurant's revenue comes from booze vs. food sales if they sell both.

No, it's always been that way. And for Open Carry, the Felony is for if they sell alcohol at all, retail or restaurant.

As far as whether a restaurant allows CHL, they have a "51%" sign.

CHL allowed



CHL not Allowed



Stupid and meaningless



Correct sign for restricting firearms on premises (must be English Spanish and high contrast Red on White, Black on White or White on Black).



And improper (and can be ignored) sign

James - any chance there is a list of businesses that display the 30.06 sign? No need to patronize them.

[Rick Lee]

Wow. Signs are a pain in the ass and I suspect would do more harm than good for prosecutor. We also have a myriad of those signs and only one of them, when placed in the precise location prescribed by law constitutes "reasonable notice." Most are meaningless. Even my workplace has a sign at the gates to the parking lot stating no guns and citing a long-since repealed statute number. Doesn't harm them, since most folks don't know any better and will obey it. But it has no force of law at all anymore.

[red-beard]

The first two are from the TABC, Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission and are simply signs any business selling alcohol has to put up. Pretty sure TABC supplies the signs.

The 30.06 signs are if a business wants to restrict carry. They have to be PRECISE or they carry no weight of law. And the charge is simple "trespassing". And I have NEVER heard of it being prosecuted. Typically, if there was an issue, the police would just ask you to leave. Of course, somehow they have to KNOW you have a firearm...

I expect 30.06 will be more likely enforced for Open Carry than anything else. And possibly push more businesses to put up the signs.

[HardDrive]

Meh. I think its probably best people don't open carry. It could scare people, and there's the risk that a kid/nut jobs could reach for the gun.

[Joeaksa]

My only concern is that once you get a CCW you are then on the list of folks who for sure have weapons around. That would be the last thing I would want to be on especially in some states where the legislature or LE are in the mood to dis-arm the public no matter what the 2nd amendment says.

On the other hand, should something difficult happen and a person be forced to defend themselves, having the training sure would help you legally (Rot 911 hope you as a lawyer could chime in here) as otherwise someone is going to get you in court and say "well you did not have the CCW so how did you know what the law allows you to do?"

Guess someone could take the CCW course yet not ever file the paperwork (in a state like Arizona with open carry with no CCW) and cover both bases...

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Meh. I think its probably best people don't open carry. It could scare people, and there's the risk that a kid/nut jobs could reach for the gun.

I would fear the police over reacting to an open-carry situation more than regular people. A couple of times a year we have someone arrested because the police do not understand that open carry of a rifle is legal in Texas. Usually ends badly for the police departments and cities, once the person lawyers up.

[red-beard]

Joe,

Since we had a discontinuity in firearm ownership in many families, I would prefer that most new owners take a basic firearm safety course. No matter what, the gun shop should encourage it.

The problem is the coercion...

I expect that I will continue to conceal, even if open carry becomes legal.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

My only concern is that once you get a CCW you are then on the list of folks who for sure have weapons around. That would be the last thing I would want to be on especially in some states where the legislature or LE are in the mood to dis-arm the public no matter what the 2nd amendment says.

Counterpoint: I would rather be known as the guy who has a spoon vs. the guy who doesn't. LE may be interested in the 'who has a gun' list, but criminals and felons are more interested in the 'who DOESN'T have a gun' list.

Originally Posted by red-beard

Joe,

Since we had a discontinuity in firearm ownership in many families, I would prefer that most new owners take a basic firearm safety course. No matter what, the gun shop should encourage it.

The problem is the coercion...

I expect that I will continue to conceal, even if open carry becomes legal.

I agree - training is essential in the proper handling and use of firearms. However, I believe training should always and ONLY be voluntary, and as you state, strongly encouraged by gun shops and ranges. When I purchased my first spoon, I took two NRA safety courses before I made it go bang. Plus snap-cap training, plus reading and watching safety videos. Every spoon owner should commit to memory the 4 basic safety rules of guns (Treat every gun as if it were loaded, finger off the trigger until you acquire your target, don't point the gun at anything you don't want to destroy, mind your target and what is behind it.)

If training becomes mandatory, that implies a certification process must be done for firearm ownership. Who would create and certify the test? The government, of course. So, it is foreseeable that the training would require the applicant to take a 1000 question test with a passing grade of 990 correct answers. Besides, the Second Amendment says "right to keep and bear arms" it doesn't say "right to keep and bear arms as long as you get a 99% on the gun test."

-Z-man.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Rot 911

We have open carry in Missouri, subject to various city ordinances that may prohibit open carry. My city allows it. I can't say as I have ever seen anyone open carry here as I think the general opinion is that it would just freak everyone out. I carry concealed.

When I live in Sierra Vista, AZ you saw lots of people open carry. And down there no one got worked up over it.

Same for NC. I think I've seen just one person open carry a pistol a few years ago over the past decades...folks just don't open carry here. But it IS our right...I remember clearly back in '68 after MLK was shot and the shtf....as a kid sitting in a BBQ joint on Main St, watching half the folks walking by either with a long gun or pistol strapped on. I've never felt the need nor desire to carry concealed or otherwise...that's just me. Nor do I want more idiots with poor decision making skills carrying either....like a few well publicized cases in FL the past few years either. Having said that....I KNOW Kurt has a different opinion and EXPERIENCE....and I respect that too . Too each their own....

[TechnoViking]

I automatically assume people who open carry are nutjobs. Do you really need that thing at the restaurant?

The last guy I say open carrying was at least 150 pounds overweight. Seems he is drastically overestimating his chances of dying at the hands of a terrorist while ignoring what's actually, immanently going to kill him.

Just like the doomsday preppers who think the zombies are coming to get them. They should stop playing with guns and hit the treadmill.

[varmint]

there are effectively no restrictions on open or concealed carry in my state. no permit is needed. it is perfectly normal to be in line at the grocery store with someone who has a weapon on their hip. i just assume that everyone has a gun in the truck.


in a weird bit of reasoning the state does offer a permit. take a course, pay a small fee and it's yours. the only reason i can see to get one is for reciprocity with somewhere else.

[Jrboulder]

Just like the doomsday preppers who think the zombies are coming to get them. They should stop playing with guns and hit the treadmill.

No, prepping is for the guys who have no justification for owning a tomahawk but oh wait it might save your life better get two.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by TechnoViking

I automatically assume people who open carry are nutjobs. Do you really need that thing at the restaurant?

The last guy I say open carrying was at least 150 pounds overweight. Seems he is drastically overestimating his chances of dying at the hands of a terrorist while ignoring what's actually, immanently going to kill him.

Just like the doomsday preppers who think the zombies are coming to get them. They should stop playing with guns and hit the treadmill.

Not sure what one's weight or appearance have to do with their mental fitness to carry a gun. By that standard, plenty of cops should be prohibited possessors. Never seen OC in a restaurant other than a fast food place, since OC is a no no here if alcohol is sold for consumption. Rest assured, though, lots of people CCW around you and you'll never know it. I don't think I've ever not CCW'ed while in CO and I look pretty clean and innocent.

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by Rot 911

We have open carry in Missouri, subject to various city ordinances that may prohibit open carry. My city allows it. I can't say as I have ever seen anyone open carry here as I think the general opinion is that it would just freak everyone out. I carry concealed.

When I live in Sierra Vista, AZ you saw lots of people open carry. And down there no one got worked up over it.

Same here in PA.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by red-beard

It is funny, if I saw someone open carry right now, I would probably assume they were an off duty cop. I wouldn't freak out.

An ex-coworker of mine lives on 10 or 20 acres of land 80 or 90 miles up 59 from Houston. He open carries on his land. He's told me the story about being out and about on his property one day, jumping in the truck to run some errands, and realizing after he'd just come out of a bank branch that he'd been open carrying the whole time. He'd forgotten and no one had looked twice or said a word. He's a short guy that wears a white cowboy hat. He's assuming anyone that noticed just thought that he was a cop or something.

[dyount]

I honestly just don't get the need or want to open carry. I do have a permit to CC, competed at one point in IPSC and as well I'm a very long term martial artist.
I think of carrying the same way as being a martial artist. Why at any point would anyone let their opponent know that they are capable of protecting themselves?? Do you not eliminate what advantage you have by "show and tell".
I carry quite often and the only time you'd know is the last moment when I'm throwing lead.

Now this whole 2nd amendment thing.... Although in my opinion you have every right to protect your home from invasion it does not (again opinion) give anyone the right to carry a firearm. In my opinion, if you are capable of getting a CC permit, well trained in not only firing but also basic combat I've got no issue.
Your typical open carry person could easily be overwhelmed,gun taken, and fired upon before they had the slightest chance to respond or would walk around like it's range time no thinking of firing from cover.

The whole traveling with firearms thing should be easier than it is but it's a gun owners responsibility to not go to NJ or DE for that matter. Or, feel free to carry all you want taking the risk if need be

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Joe,

Since we had a discontinuity in firearm ownership in many families, I would prefer that most new owners take a basic firearm safety course. No matter what, the gun shop should encourage it.

The problem is the coercion...

I expect that I will continue to conceal, even if open carry becomes legal.

James, sorry and for most folks would totally agree. I am coming from the standpoint where about 95% of my friends are Vets and have been trained in the military how to work with and handle a weapon safely.

People who do not have a military background for sure need some basic training...