any snowboard experts out there? - My kid is struggling

[twobone]

My 13 year old son can do both heel and toe turns on his snow board. However he is struggling with an inability to really carve across the hill in hard pack. He finds on hard pack snow he just side-slips down with the camber of the hill (towards the trees) as opposed to carving across it. I keep telling him to lean in to get an edge....but its just not working. I think it also gets worse as he is kind of a slow boarder and so does not get a ton of momentum up. Lastly his board may be slightly short. He just keeps getting teller by the day!

I noticed his board shape when looking at the base is curved across it's width, which I think diminishes its ability to get a good edge on hard pack. I suspect that is helpful for kids so that it makes it easier to transition and avoid catching an edge....but I think as they progress it leads to an inability to get an edge.

Do you agree if he can do both turns, he is ready to progress to a flat bottom board (when viewed across its width)?

I have come to the realization that he is not a speed demon (unlike his younger son or his Dad ), but I don't want him to get so frustrated he stops wanting to be part of the family fun.

Thanks

[stomachmonkey]

Has his board ever been set up properly?

Do you maintain the edges?

As a former ski instructor I would encourage professional lessons.

I made it a rule to never teach someone I knew, the familiarity makes it difficult.

People listen and retain better when the instruction comes from a person of "authority".

[porsche4life]

I'm no expert, but if he hasn't had an hour two of private instruction recently, I bet that would go a long way to sorting his problems out.

[mark waller]

as a former rep in the ski industry proper size equipment that is tuned properly and some good instruction is what's needed. It makes learning easier and less frustration for all involved!

[Eric 951]

Also a former ski/board instructor--set him up with a 1-hr intermediate lesson, if he can do both heel and toe turns, he has the fundamentals, a good instructor should be able to get him to carve in that timeframe. Once he "gets" the feel of how to carve, he should have no issues replicating it.

Also, I will re-iterate, make sure his gear is properly sized for him--board is the right length and width--maybe his toes or heels are sticking out past the board , which will ruin any opportunity to carve. And forgot to add--make sure the board has a good edge and tune, not the cheap-o quick wax.

Good luck and have fun.

[slodave]

Yup, lessons.

[motion]

I'm stuck in the same rut... would like to speed up my boarding, but afraid of the consequences, LOL.

[red-beard]

To hold the carving edge, the feet need to be locked to the boots. On a toe side turn, the toes should be digging into the bottom of the boot like a claw. On a heel side turn, the toes need to not just extend, but need to be "pulled" up to the top of the boot.

To help "visualize" this, I encouraged my students to mimic these maneuvers with their hands. Further, they do the hand jive as they snowboard, at least until it is natural.

Finally, look at the board itself. If he is snowboarding on hard pack, you need to have sharp edges, properly beveled, or the board will not hold the hill.

If he is more focused towards all around the mountain, not terrain parks and half-pipe, he might consider race bindings and hard boots. You end up with much better edge control and hence carving. I use a carving board with hard-boots. If they still made rear-entry ski boots, I'd still be using ski boots.

I suggest lessons, but not too many place have intermediate lessons for carving. Usually, those lessons are focused on the half-pipe and terrain park. Maybe find someone for downhill racing/boarder-Cross training.

[Cajundaddy]

Lessons from someone other than dad. It matters. Carving is all about edge transfer and maybe one or two morning lessons he will have it. Have the ski shop give the board a good going over and if it is wrong for him, rent one for the lessons.

[nynor]

i've been boarding since 1985 and have owned several boards. i currently have a vintage burton race board and very nice all mountain board, plus a couple i keep around to toy with.

your description of the bottom of the board is interesting to me. i have several questions:

how much does your son weigh? this will, more than anything determine what length his board needs to be along with ->

how tall?

what board and bindings is he using now?

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by nynor

i've been boarding since 1985 and have owned several boards. i currently have a vintage burton race board and very nice all mountain board, plus a couple i keep around to toy with.

your description of the bottom of the board is interesting to me. i have several questions:

how much does your son weigh? this will, more than anything determine what length his board needs to be along with ->

how tall?

what board and bindings is he using now?

^^^ This

What you describe (convex shape edge-to-edge across width of the base) will make it very hard to set and hold an edge, forcing a slide rather than a carved turn. Most boarders I see on the hill are riding on equipment that's never been tuned (rubbing a bar of wax doesn't count). Get a good board fitting, including stance width. Then get the board tuned -- even (especially?) if new -- by a reputable shop. Depends on where you ride, but generally a flat base w/a degree/degree & a half of bevel on the outside 1.25" to 1.5" toward the edges is a good starting point. Make sure the edges are crisp, with a gradual detune (rounding) toward the last 2 inches or so before the widest part of the tip and tail to ease turn initiation & a nicer, rounder finish to a carved turn.

None of this will compensate for lessons / experience / skill, but will make it easier to apply said skill. Hope this helps.

[patz]

Get him a long board skate board.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by patz

Get him a long board skate board.

I was thinking that this afternoon too as I was riding around the neighborhood. I got a longboard because the snow season in AZ is short, and 4+hrs from me. Now that I can carve well on the longboard, I have noticed my snowboarding getting better. Plus, its just damn fun!

[twobone]

Originally Posted by nynor

i've been boarding since 1985 and have owned several boards. i currently have a vintage burton race board and very nice all mountain board, plus a couple i keep around to toy with.

your description of the bottom of the board is interesting to me. i have several questions:

how much does your son weigh? this will, more than anything determine what length his board needs to be along with ->

how tall?

what board and bindings is he using now?

Thanks. He weighs about 70-80 lbs and must be getting close to 5 feet tall. He is a skinny teenager.

I did get it tuned this year. However given the shape of the base, I don't feel it has a sharp edge. Perhaps the tuning shop did a crap job.

Regardless, what is the wisdom on board length and shape? He is going to be a long green or blue run carver, not a terrain park kid.

Thanks

[Cajundaddy]

A lot of thought goes into choosing the best suited board for each rider. Here is a primer:
Snowboard Sizing, Size Charts and Guides

[twobone]

He did have beginner lessons a while back. He is as stubborn as a mule about taking lessons now that he is a teenager (we choose our battles).

When he is feeling confident he will string together nice turns. When he gets more nervous he is more likely to slow down and pause just slightly at the turn to be sure he has control.

Hopefully we find the right compromise of a board that will give him enough edge to allow him to carve across the hill without too much side slip while still giving him the confidence that he can transition into a turn without catching an edge.

I know he will have to learn more about the weight transfer requirements of a good turn as he migrates to longer board.

PS - God do I love snowboarding! Folks are often surprised to hear that I board (46 year old guy). Its not that tough once you get the hang of it and the feeling is so amazing. Wrist guards, a helmet and a butt-pad are life savers regardless of your skill level.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by twobone

I did get it tuned this year. However given the shape of the base, I don't feel it has a sharp edge. Perhaps the tuning shop did a crap job.

Edges need to be sharpened EVERY TIME you go out. If you cannot shave a little of the middle of your finger nail with the edge, it is too dull.

Don't get me started with waxing...it is very temperature dependent and again needs to be done every couple of days, if not everyday, and changed for conditions.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by twobone

PS - God do I love snowboarding! Folks are often surprised to hear that I board (46 year old guy). Its not that tough once you get the hang of it and the feeling is so amazing. Wrist guards, a helmet and a butt-pad are life savers regardless of your skill level.

I switched to snowboarding at 26, in 1992. I was the old man of snowboarding back then.

[stomachmonkey]

While properly sized and maintained equipment is important IMHO it always takes a back seat to skill.

Skill is what allows you to ski a wet noodle in any conditions while the guy with the best gear and no skill is holding yard sales.

IMHO focusing on equipment is a mental crutch that hinders progression of skill.

Also not all instructors are created equally.

Your beginner group instructors are tasked with the teaching the basics to a varied group of people.

I personally hated giving group lessons because they do not allow enough time for individual focus on a particular student.

Private Intermediate lessons may be what he needs. The instructor has more time to focus on the students mechanics and really work on the problem areas.

If the school videotapes and reviews after runs even better.

It's always a revelation to people when they can see their form for themselves.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by red-beard

To hold the carving edge, the feet need to be locked to the boots. On a toe side turn, the toes should be digging into the bottom of the boot like a claw. On a heel side turn, the toes need to not just extend, but need to be "pulled" up to the top of the boot.

To help "visualize" this, I encouraged my students to mimic these maneuvers with their hands. Further, they do the hand jive as they snowboard, at least until it is natural.

Finally, look at the board itself. If he is snowboarding on hard pack, you need to have sharp edges, properly beveled, or the board will not hold the hill.

If he is more focused towards all around the mountain, not terrain parks and half-pipe, he might consider race bindings and hard boots. You end up with much better edge control and hence carving. I use a carving board with hard-boots. If they still made rear-entry ski boots, I'd still be using ski boots.

I suggest lessons, but not too many place have intermediate lessons for carving. Usually, those lessons are focused on the half-pipe and terrain park. Maybe find someone for downhill racing/boarder-Cross training.

Boy howdy this is , IMHO the critical bit other than skill.