If Snowden Returns To The US?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by yazhound

Blah blah blah... really? Just unimportant words on a page?

Somewhat, yes. There are lots of debates about theory that ignore more practical concerns. I'm willing to give up some of my theoretical freedoms in order that a few more bad guys get stopped in their tracks. If you have a better idea of how to catch the bastards than the NSA does, I'm all ears. If not, then let them get on with their jobs. Don't tell me what they do is wrong, if you don't have a better, viable solution, ready to go.

Snowden was an idiot, and he made the world a less safe place. People with his limited viewpoint and intellect should not be in a position where they could affect the security of an entire nation.

JR

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by javadog

I think sometimes we cling to ideals and shoot ourselves in the foot. The constitution was a fine document for its time but the reality is that our world is a vastly different place now and the ****heads don't play by the same rules we do. You can aspire to live free, in an idealistic sort of way, or live in the real world.

I don't notice any instrusion in my life, so I see no downside to the NSA doing what they are tasked to do.

JR

If it doesn't impact you, you're OK with it? Racial profiling? Invasion of privacy? Stop and frisk?

[javadog]

None of those have been a problem for me. Not sure that all of them relate to the work done by the NSA, so lets stay on topic, shall we? What has the NSA done to you, personally, that has been a problem for you? Feel free to list all examples.

JR

[legion]

I think he is a patriot for exposing how our government now violates our 4th Amendment rights every second of every day.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by javadog

I think sometimes we cling to ideals and shoot ourselves in the foot. The constitution was a fine document for its time but the reality is that our world is a vastly different place now

Originally Posted by yazhound

Are you a second amendment guy? The argument has been made many times over that it should evolve as the forefathers had no expectations of modern weaponry....

This. I've often wondered about this. Many people who are happy to ignore the constitution when it comes to security and privacy are the same who argue that the 2nd amendment is unassailable. Either the constitution is a sacred document that must be adhered to exactly or it is open to interpretation, evolution and change. You can't have it both ways.

[yazhound]

thing is coffeehound, you will not know the extent of the damage done until far later. Incremental damage is not felt all at once, eventually, when too late you see, feel, or experience the result.

Simply because I do not have the perfect solution does not make the short cut a correct path. The old saying of two wrongs....

How do you determine how much of the constitution can be jettisoned?

[yazhound]

Originally Posted by Christien

This. I've often wondered about this. Many people who are happy to ignore the constitution when it comes to security and privacy are the same who argue that the 2nd amendment is unassailable. Either the constitution is a sacred document that must be adhered to exactly or it is open to interpretation, evolution and change. You can't have it both ways.

Hard hard choices for sure. But the idea that powers know best is the same sort of thinking which we assail as wrong in other countries. Can only remain a nation of ideals if we maintain our ideals steadfastly

[javadog]

You worry about some unspecified damage. Might be worse in the future, you say.

Then again, there might be no damage. I don't see what they were doing as having any real downside to the vast majority of us, now or in the future.

I do know that his leaks have made it harder for the US to keep track of what the terrorists are thinking. In turn, since we share information with the rest of the civilized world, the security of those nations is now less than it was. Ask yourself if the terrorists have had any success since Snowden did his thing... Would you be in favor of helping them out even more? Tilting the playing field more in their favor? After all, they play by the rules, don't they? They're a fair bunch, those radical *******s. Anyway, what are a few deaths in France, or England, or some other faraway place going to matter to you?

The second amendment argument, or abortion rights, or any of the other, usual constitutional fights have nothing to do with this.

In nothing else, shoot the little bastard for his theft of classified military documents. That's treasonous, something that goes way back to the dawn of the constitution. I'm sure Putin had no interest in any of those documents, so I suppose we should thank him for keeping them safe from prying eyes for the last couple of years.

JR

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by javadog

None of those have been a problem for me. Not sure that all of them relate to the work done by the NSA, so lets stay on topic, shall we? What has the NSA done to you, personally, that has been a problem for you? Feel free to list all examples.

JR

Fair enough. NSA hasn't impacted me directly AFAIK. I would argue the point that issues that don't impact us directly can still be unjust/unethical none the less.

BTW I have a problem with the way Snowden handled the issue. It is my opinion that he may have been able to have a similar effect without creating a security issue.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by nkowi

Then you should've said so.

I figured that anyone who is literate enough to post here realized that was how it works in the US.

[fintstone]

As far as I know, Snowden made a big splash, but was not able to show any violation of the Constitution and things are no different than before he became a traitor...except he probably cost the nation billions of dollars, likely cost quite a few lives, lowered our ability to protect the nation, divulged a great deal of classified information and hurt relationships with foreign allies.

Imagine if everyone who had access to classified information decided to steal it and go to China/Russia?

[gshase]

I honestly believe he deserves a fair trial then hang him high.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

The crazy thing is that, were he not a contractor, he would have been protected under the federal whistleblower law. He's only on the lam because he wasn't a federal employee.

Whistleblower protection does not allow Feds to break the law themselves. Espionage and theft of Federal property for starters. He would also be on the lam if he were a Fed...or in jail.

Absent his breaking the law, the worst retaliation that could have happened was him losing his job...something that his criminal actions accomplished anyways.

[yazhound]

Huh stealing from violators of the constitution, what is the greater crime?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by yazhound

Huh stealing from violators of the constitution, what is the greater crime?

Let me help you:

Originally Posted by yazhound

Wrong is wrong.

Originally Posted by yazhound

The old saying of two wrongs....

You were saying?

[Gretch]

Well, unlike Snowden, fonda is running around free as a bird...........

Start with hanging that *****..... then get back to me.

[javadog]

FWIW, the Supreme Court hasn't dealt much with wiretaps relating to national security, as much as they have to those related to prosecution of criminal cases. Who knows where the interpretation of the 4th amanedment is headed, as it applies to this case.

JR

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by yazhound

Huh stealing from violators of the constitution, what is the greater crime?

No one violated the Constitution. When he stole classified material from the Government, he stole from you and I.

[yazhound]

Originally Posted by javadog

You worry about some unspecified damage. Might be worse in the future, you say.

Then again, there might be no damage. I don't see what they were doing as having any real downside to the vast majority of us, now or in the future.

I do know that his leaks have made it harder for the US to keep track of what the terrorists are thinking. In turn, since we share information with the rest of the civilized world, the security of those nations is now less than it was. Ask yourself if the terrorists have had any success since Snowden did his thing... Would you be in favor of helping them out even more? Tilting the playing field more in their favor? After all, they play by the rules, don't they? They're a fair bunch, those radical *******s. Anyway, what are a few deaths in France, or England, or some other faraway place going to matter to you?

The second amendment argument, or abortion rights, or any of the other, usual constitutional fights have nothing to do with this.

In nothing else, shoot the little bastard for his theft of classified military documents. That's treasonous, something that goes way back to the dawn of the constitution. I'm sure Putin had no interest in any of those documents, so I suppose we should thank him for keeping them safe from prying eyes for the last couple of years.

JR

1) damage to one part of the constitution makes it easier to damage the rest. so, yes they are related.

2) death by a thousand cuts.... the more the uh, "terrorists" get us to change our ideals, the more they win the long-term war.

3) oft times folks here relate so-called appeasement of hitler to that of appeasing the terrorists, or at least playing into their hands. similarly, hitler took a bit, and a bit and a bit until Germany was nazified. Just because you havent felt it yet does not mean you won't or your progeny won't. keep turning a blind eye... door number 101.

4) expecting NSA to at least have a plan of attack rather than a blanket spy on everybody policy is not unreasonable. carte blanch surveillence is not the correct answer.

5) how has NSA's widespread spying given us the specific info we need? Tailoring begets less garbage to sift through. Less missing the needle in the haystack.

[yazhound]

Originally Posted by javadog

Let me help you:





You were saying?

point being that you get up in arms about Snowden but seem copacetic with NSA dirty deeds... lesser of two evils to you i presume