Isn't this more or less pandering for an increased constituency?

I was thinking that if today a company pays the CEO $3 million cash salary and $7 million in stock, the company gets to deduct $10 million in expense. I have to wonder if the same company was only able to deduct $150k, would they still pay the CEO $10 mil in cash and stock? Would the company be able to afford the deluxe salary with the increased tax bill?

By the way, increasing an employee from $8.50 to $15 per hour also puts more in the governments hands in the form of income taxes and fica taxes.

Who do you want to take money from, the top or the bottom? If you push it up from the bottom, by raising the minimum wage, you end up passively taking more from the bottom of the pile, in the form of inflation. Why not use the tax laws to get the big corporations to do what I am absolutely certain you would support, reduce executive reimbursement packages while increasing the tax on what they are being paid.
If you saw what happened last year, why do you wonder what would happen?

There is a vacant Gottschalks across the street from my office. It used to be a JC Penney. That mall is dying though. There is a Macy's at the other end that owns their building, which is the only reason it is still there. I have walked over there at lunch mid week and had to really look for a clerk. That Macy's used to be a Weinstocks

Why take money from US corporations or business at all for work accomplished in the US? Costs all get passed on to consumers anyways. Why not simplify things and eliminate corporate taxes and just get the taxes directly from consumers at income tax time?.

Better yet, Why not simplify it a bit further and just collect a federal sales tax. That would eliminate most of the IRS since states already have that mechanism in place...and everyone woul pay their fair share.

I want some of Fint's drugs.

Minimum wage is absolutely necessary unless we crack down on illegal immigration.

Says the tin man from the Wizard of Oz.

Uh yeah, sure thing there, Mr. Rogers... LMAO

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1430017426.jpg

Go over to PARF. They are passing them out for free. Don't take too much though, as they will likely cause you to spew vomit.

You guys just cannot have a discussion in OT without making personal attacks. It is like trying to have an adult conversation with children. What is wrong with you?

Definitely one big piece of the problem!

^ You're saying that employers don't take out withholding for their non-citizen employees? Or that they pay them under the table? This is a little bit like using a dull instrument on delicate surgery.

Without illegal immigration going strong, we would have a supply and demand system that forces employers to pay a decent wage to get good workers. There wouldn't be a need for a minimum wage because people would be paid what they are worth. The lowest quality (either no skills or slackers) would make less.
Illegal aliens undercut a law abiding citizen who has to pay taxes, SSI, car insurance, etc.

^ Sorry but that's just absurd. We have a perfectly functioning supply and demand system, save for the ridiculous minimum wage, which prices entry level jobs out of existence.

I like a hiring tax credit for low wage labor better than a minimum wage. It encourages more hiring. In a consumer economy like ours, we need somehow to get money into the hands of large numbers of consumers if the economy is going to grow.

Well said!
This follows the same idea as buying cheap merchandise from China because their wages are low. In this case, products and more likely, services, are being purchased inside our own borders at low rates from illegals. Granted, some of them have regular jobs and pay taxes, but there is also a sub-economy going on and law abiding companies cannot compete when they are forced to pay a higher wage.

Wait a minute. So, restaurant A who pays its waitresses minimum wage is forced out of business because restaurant B across the street is staffed with illegal alien waitresses making $4/hour?. Like, the customers don't notice that the waitresses in restaurant B can't speak English and don't know the wine list? Or are you saying that the WalMart Superstore that is forced to pay minimum wage is struggling to compete with that little shop down the street staffed with illegal alien clerks, because the little shop can underprice poor Wal-Mart?.

Exactly! If both restaurants in your example sell tacos, the restaurant that sells a taco for $1.50 just might sell more taco's than the place across the street that sells the same for $4.50.

Just to make it simple for you....if both restaurants were the same, do you think there would be any advantage to the restaurant that gets free rent?

It's pretty well known that Wal Mart has put much competition out of business. How are they doing it? By selling for less. How do they sell for less? By buying merchandise from overseas where the labor is cheaper (the average Chinese factory worker makes 1/10th that of a US worker).

I find the assertion that any but the most marginal business would fail to pay withholding and payroll tax and workman's comp. The risk alone could put you out of business in a very quick way.

Lots of small business people/franchisees take that risk. I know of folks who run national chain stores and restaurants that have "private contractors" who come in an clean their carpets and grill hoods at night, mow their grass, pressure wash their building and sidewalks and unload their trucks. Clean their windows. These things used to be done by minimum wage employees...but it is much cheaper to contract out to someone who hires illegals. The same businesses also hire small, private firms to fix their plumbing, unload their trucks, etc. That doesn't even count the folks who work in the fields to grow and pick produce, those who work on meat packing plants, etc.

I used to go to a Waffle House that I found out that two of the employees on the night shift were paid in cash. Their books showed another employee worked those hours at a much higher rate. That employee got to keep a portion of the money whenever the cash employee worked. Most serving employees made about $4 per hour plus tips. Cooks made min wage...about $7hr. One employee was paid $12hr on the books and had some sort of assistant mgr title to make it seem legit. He also cooked and kept $9hr (of the $12) and when both he and the cash employee worked the same hours (first 6 hrs of the shift) and all $12hr the last 2-4 hours of the shift. For the 6 hrs per night that they both worked, the cash employee got free meals...one at the start and one at the end of the shift as well as $3hr (of the $12) in cash with no taxes or deductions for him or the franchise. The other employees did not know the deal and assumed the cash employee made what they did. Franchise knew, but if caught, would have pretended not to and let the asst mgr take the blame. They saved about $1 per hour for each of the min wage employees (cooks).

I do that. It's not about cheaper illegal help:

It's about not having to invest in specialized equipment that is underused - carpet cleaners, lawnmowers, etc

It's about not having people on payroll when I don't need them. The lawn doesn't need mowed every day, the sidewalks don't need shoveling every day, the windows don't need washing every day.

It's about hiring companies that specialize in mowing, window cleaning, building cleaning, and letting them do what they do best, leaving me free to do what I do best.

It's also called hiring an outside company. We have no idea if the gardener's crew is working here illegally or not, regardless of how they got here. In fqct, many Hispanics pay into SS but never receive benefits. It's also absurd to say that at any time janitorial, repair, and delivery operation have ever or should ever be in-house. And no sane person operating those companies would cheat on payroll taxes and insurance.

What does their ethnicity have to do with anything? Or did you mean to write "many illegals pay into SS?" Around here the only illegals paying into SS are those who used stolen identities to get the job in the first place, which doesn't garner much sympathy on my part. And since those SS numbers belong to real people (US citizens or green card holders), those benefits are very paid out, just not necessarily to the criminal using the stolen ID.

You can also hire day labor to perform tasks periodically without having to put them on payroll, so long as they are not a shift employee. Paying cash is fine as long as you are not employing them full time.

Some people pick the most random corrective comment to contribute to a conversation while understanding the difference to be insignificant. Do you want a medal?

No, I'm just not sure what you meant by that statement. I hear a lot of illegal alien-apologist politicians make excuses like "they pay into the system." Illegals cannot get SS numbers except by, well, illegal means. So, while they might be paying into the system, it's always done with a false or stolen ID and those benefits are claimed and eventually paid to the victim of the ID theft. So it's not like the SS "Trust Fund" is being saved by these well-meaning illegal aliens who pay into the system and then "ask nothing in return."

Sorry, but you are wrong. Non-citizens may indeed get work permits and do indeed pay into SS.

Yes, I know. For example, you can be a recent grad on a student visa and get OPT, which gives you a year to find an H1B sponsor. But, IIRC, when Mrs. Lee work under OPT, she did not have to pay SS or Medicare until she had adjusted status to an H1B. The illegals coming up through Mexico who go to work in the fields, picking strawberries or working on landscaping crews cannot and do not get those labor permits. There are regular busts around here (for which Sheriff Joe is in big trouble, himself) where they round up restaurant workers who have all the proper paperwork, except that it belongs to someone else.

Well here in California, there is a Mexican Consulate office that assists Mexican nationals to apply for immigrant work visas. This helps to ease the burden from U.S. DHS. They still need American SS#s for many legitimate jobs, which is why they go through the trouble.

Funny thing though, many of the illegals are Hmong, who are non-citizens but will never be deported, due to their fighting Communists during the Vietnam war. They are generally less willing to get immigrant visas and far less trusting of government. They just try to make do on their own.

I used to work for a U.S. Senator, and I'd say half of our constituent cases were immigrant cases. I remember seeing the same people downstairs waiting in line day after day at the INS office. Our cases were people who got ripped off by "immigration attorneys". We used to write directly to State on thier behalf and some times, somehow, they became citizens after that.

Exactly. That is how "legitimate" firms get around the risk of hiring illegals while benefitting from the low wages they pay. Small businesses that this type work would be outsourced to that do not hit illegals are quickly priced out of the market while "legit" businesses and their customers benefit by proxy...and depress wages for citizens.

The original question was: Should minimum wage be: Higher? Lower? None?

My Comments:
1) Raising minimum wage will help the individual in the short term.
2) Raising minimum wage will have future, long-term effects on the country.
3) Companies, much smaller than Wal-Mart, purchase products, supplies, etc from foreign countries because it's cheaper (and often lower quality).
4) When products are cheaper to buy from foreign countries, it eliminates American jobs.
5) When American jobs are eliminated we end up with part of a work force that is not working and receive government subsidies to exist (i.e., food-stamps, welfare, unemployment, health care, housing assistance, etc..). I read a report (April 2014) that stated that Wal-Mart employees cost the American tax payer $6.2 Billion per year in govt subsidies.
6) At some point, whole industries leave America and manufacturing industry shifts to foreign countries.
Almost 6 million manufacturing jobs have left the United States in the last 15 years. What Is Going On??? | The Alliance of Americans for America
In 1970, 17.8 Million manufacturing jobs were available for men and women who wanted to work hard and enjoy productive, comfortable lives. Now we have only 12 million manufacturing jobs left in this country, 6 Million lost since 2000.
7) With less and less manufacturing jobs in America, what jobs are the illegal and legal immigrants taking? Construction, house keeping, gardening, agriculture, food service, etc...
8) With more & more illegal immigration, the playing field is not level. Just as importing merchandise is cheaper, so is hiring illegal labor. As we raise minimum wage, employers look for ways to lower costs (which can include using cheaper illegal wages, importing cheaper foreign merchandise, replacing humans with machines, etc...)

They do service work and construction.

And agricultural and meat packing

All the s**t jobs that white people won't do.

Exactly. And not only won't do, but won't do with a sense of pride and accountability.

If the government is so concerned with people earning more money in order to have a better life maybe they should practice what they preach. I just received a summons to appear for jury duty. I am self employed and if I do not work I do not get paid so everyday I miss cost me quite a sum. But I do not have to worry because they will give me $40 a day for my service. If I am there for eight hours a day that is $5 and hour and this does not account for travel which will be an additional 2 hours. That brings my pay down to $4 an hour. Why doesn't the government pay minimum wage for jury duty?
The only reason they want a higher minimum wage is to collect more taxes anyone who believes otherwise has blinders on.

Yep, and if anyone thinks the only cost is the extra $$ per hour they are truly clueless.

That is one giant fallacy that seems to be sticking. I put on my own roof; 4000 sqft and I take great pride in it. It took me 2 months and it's definitely the nicest in my neighborhood. I sheet rocked my garage and I take great pride in it, although I was not able to tape the seams quite as well as a pro. Don't make me post pictures because I have thousands to bore you with.

Many of the so called jobs that "white" people won't do (your words not mine), have been done by us for ages. Since the 7th grade I've had many **** jobs (paper boy, janitor, gas station, fast food, department store, car wash, window cleaning, auto detailing, dish washer, auto parts, accountant, CFO). The point is, many of my jobs were starting out jobs that paid minimum wage. I eventually moved on to better paying jobs.

Vern,

With all due respect, you're talking about your own roof, not working for min wage.

I also worked crap jobs. In fact, I worked for less than min wage. But I would say honestly that white people ....and I say this without equivocation, white people are lazier than Hispanics. Period, end of report.

If you doubt me, come out to my place in October. I'm in Fresno. In fact, I'll give you a minimum wage job and see if you can hack it for more than 1 day.

Relax. Just tell them it's a hardship. They don't want unmotivated jurors.