do you think we still need fluoride added to our drinking water?

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by jyl

Portland is one of the few major (sort of) cities in the US that does not flouridate its water. When I moved here and went to my first Portland dentist, she looked at my X rays and immediately said "I can tell you're not from here". She told me the difference between the teeth of people who grew up in Portland, without fluoridated water, and people who grew up elsewhere, with fluoridated water, is very obvious to her. No, the Portland natives don't have better teeth.

Are you sure she wasn't commenting on your lack of coffee stains?

[Jolly Amaranto]

Found this looking over the literature available.

Scientific literature does not support the claims that fluoride adversely affects the immune system, collagen, glucose metabolism, the integrity of genetic material, causes, attention deficit disorder, Alzheimer's disease, osteoporosis, cancer or AIDS, aggravates kidney disease or hypothyroidism. Anti-fluoridationists and anti-fluoride websites cite "scientific articles", most of which have methodological problems:

• They are not from reputable peer-reviewed journals and are not obtainable through a medical or dental library

• They do not deal with the fluoride compounds that are actually used to fluoridate water

• They study exposure levels way above that possible at 1 ppm dilution of fluoridated water

• They inappropriately try to extrapolate data from poorly designed animal or bench-top research with no relationship to the levels of fluoride in drinking water

Severe cosmetic or dentally injurious fluorosis of teeth or skeletal fluorosis is seen in some people growing up in areas with natural fluorides in 8 to 20 times the concentration as Arcata water. This leaves a wide safety margin for individual consumption.
Legitimate epidemiological studies have not detected health risks to water fluoridation at 1 ppm.

Since community water fluoridation was introduced in 1945, more than 50 epidemiologic studies in different populations and at different times have failed to demonstrate an association between fluoridation and the risk of cancer. Mild dental fluorosis (mottling of tooth enamel) can occur, particularly if a child also uses fluoridated toothpaste, but fluorosis does not weaken teeth. Skeletal fluorosis, which is a serious health problem, does not occur from drinking water, but can be an occupational and environmental health risk in the proximity of industries that utilize large amounts of fluoride. In contrast, the benefits of water fluoridation are great and easy to detect.

A very thorough survey of many US adults (using xrays and clinical diagnoses) found virtually no skeletal fluorosis in a population exposed for many years to natural fluoride in local water at 20 ppm (which is 20 times the recommended concentration). By comparison, in other countries there is fairly common skeletal fluorosis at concentrations half of that (but still 10 times more than in fluoridated drinking water). Clearly other factors must be operative.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Jolly Amaranto

Found this looking over the literature available.

And who sponsored that literature?

Mind you I have probably drank gallons of fluoride with no ill effect... ACK! SPIDERS!!! GET THEM OFF! GET THEM OFF!!!

however, on the other hand I could also probably find an article on the internet saying that swallowing razor blade is good for you.

[Jolly Amaranto]

I think it was on this site.
Top Ten Fluoride Facts

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Jolly Amaranto

I think it was on this site.
Top Ten Fluoride Facts

An impartial website if I've ever seen one!!!

[dentist90]

I am often asked at social occasions what I think of F in the water when found out to be a dentist (shortly after that I am often invited to peer into their mouths to suggest what can be done about some particular problem. My opinion is freely given after the 2nd beer, but I digress...)

People are usually surprised to learn that F occurs naturally and is often found in water in varying concentrations. And F is never removed from public water supplies if it is naturally occurring as it is too difficult and expensive. If it is excessive another source must be found. And well water isn't exempt from F, as a matter of fact sub-surface water contains many solutes like As, Fe, Pb... you name it. The problems occur when F reaches concentrations above 5ppm, a level that a public health program would never supplement to. The target is .6-1.2 ppm, depending on climate. Our well water at our lake house has .3ppm naturally occurring btw.
F is absorbed by growing teeth and bones. If F is ingested the enamel of our teeth will have F incorporated throughout it's thickness, not just the surface. This can only happen during development of the tooth. This enamel has been proven to be much more cavity resistant than unfluoridated enamel. Excessive F can cause staining and mottling of the teeth, which doesn't look nice but we rarely see anything worse than white spots on children's teeth. The effects of F on teeth was discovered because of excessive naturally occurring F in the water supply... in Colorado! Google Colorado Springs/ Colorado Brown Stain to see the story.
There is no disputing the fact that adding F to public water to achieve an ideal level for cavity prevention was an incredible public health success story. Back in the day when tooth brushing was uncommon, flossing unheard of and unfluoridated toothpastes it reached and helped the most people at a low cost. Things have changed. We started to overdo the F thing. We had fluoridated water, F in toothpaste, have F supplements, F rinses and F applied at the dentist's office. These don't have excessive topical effects, but children often swallow toothpastes and rinses. Toothpaste has 1000ppm F! One has to consider F intake from all sources, including bottled drinks.
Many communities are voting to discontinue adding F to water (many also have low level F in the water naturally but don't know it). I believe if children are brushing with a fluoridated toothpaste, even if they spit it out properly, they will absorb enough F for protection of developing teeth. It's almost like a F supplement. They don't need any other source. Some people are actively seeking to avoid F altogether (eg, natural toothpastes). I don't advocate that. Some are also refusing vaccination. I guess that is one's prerogative.

[vash]

Thanks!

[pavulon]

Along these lines, the number of people who do not brush their teeth with regularity is startling. Other than some relatively small subsets (i.e. many Amish and others), these same people neglect their health in general. Poor dental health is a consistent maker for poor overall health.

Originally Posted by vash

was it introduced into our water because people didnt brush, or because toothpaste didnt have fluoride in it in the past?

[LEAKYSEALS951]

If Dr OZ has anybody scared, go look up that community in colorado that Dentist90 mentioned which had the high natural levels, and see if they all are dropping like flies. They had some really high concentrations, ugly mottled teeth and no cavities. If high flouride concentrations were really gonna off ya, that whole community should be dead by now.

When I started practicing I worked in an office which was on a border between two communities. One had flouride, the other did not. You really could tell the difference between the two. Patients from the flouridated community had no cavities, and the people that did were the exception. People from the non flouridated community were the opposite. I would literally look in the patients mouth and think "Oh... you are from X county, aren't you?" More often than not, I was right.

Flouride was so successful, it caused the country to have to close a bunch of dental schools in the 1980's/1990's. In the 1960's, it was anticipated that we'd need more dentist, so they built a bunch of new schools. Flouride kicked that projection in it's ass, and the market was saturated with dentist. By 1999, Flouride had made cavities second in line to gum disease in terms of tooth loss.

I think that trend is reversing now and decay is on the rise. If you live in a non flouridated community with a lot of meth and wal-mart people and 2 liter bottles of mountain dew, then you've got a bunch of cavities.

I tell people who hate flouride to drink bottled water and suck in that BPA like a real man! (If there is a way to drink bottled water like a real man)
Me.. I'll stick with good ol' toxin filled genetically modified flouridated mercurated tap water

[74-911]

Originally Posted by dentist90

.......People are usually surprised to learn that F occurs naturally and is often found in water in varying concentrations. And F is never removed from public water supplies if it is naturally occurring as it is too difficult and expensive. If it is excessive another source must be found. And well water isn't exempt from F

In many areas of N. TX (Lubbock area in particular that I know of) there is so much natural Flouride in the water (from the Oglala aquifer) that people who grew up there and were not given bottled water during their early years have mottled teeth. Virtually everyone (that could afford it) uses bottled water for baby formula, drinking water for their kids, etc. until kids have their permanent teeth. Also, not sure about now but years ago some small towns in that area have used to claim they had no need for dentists as there were so few cavities because of the F in the water.

[cashflyer]

Originally Posted by LEAKYSEALS951

.... 2 liter bottles of mountain dew, then you've got a bunch of cavities.

FWIW, the news just yesterday said that soft drinks are the #1 cause of tooth erosion now.

[ckelly78z]

I have, and have always had well water, it's filtered, but it tastes really good, and in fact, we just replaced the jet well pump in our basement and went with a 3/4 HP 220 submersible pump.....so much quieter and more pressure as well. I just sanitized the well last week with 3 gallons of vinegar, and 1 gallon of bleach, and did a water test to find that all the results were good, and it was safe to drink again.

I've never had fluoride in my water except for at work, unless the water softner system salt contains any.....never thought about it.

[Nickshu]

We just successfully fought an anti-fluoridation campaign in our area. I'm the president of the county dental society and was involved in the battle. The angle the anti's used was that people are being forced to take a drug against their will. Interestingly, the issue of fluoride being perceived as a health risk was never raised by the opposition. We convinced the city officials based on data about low SES demographics who typically have poorer oral hygiene practices and therefore more risk for oral health problems, yet have limited to no financial resources to get access to anything but emergency care. Especially data from non-fluoridated communities with more ER visits for pediatric dental emergencies as well as hospitalizations and deaths from dental infections. The above poster is exactly right about the two adjacent communities, even modern data with all the supposed alternative fluoride sources we still see exponentially higher rates of tooth decay in communities without water fluoridation (or natural fluoride to the appropriate level).

Fluoridation is the single most successful public health program in human history, hands down, and has over 60 years of documented lack of ill effects.

[klm2500hd]

Dentist90 saved me a lot of typing, just covered this in class this week for the water system operators exam and What he wrote was a brief version of 4 hours of lecture.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Originally Posted by Nickshu

We convinced the city officials based on data about low SES demographics who typically have poorer oral hygiene practices and therefore more risk for oral health problems, yet have limited to no financial resources to get access to anything but emergency care. Especially data from non-fluoridated communities with more ER visits for pediatric dental emergencies as well as hospitalizations and deaths from dental infections.

Good point. I deal with this every day in public health. Believe me, if there ever was a case for "an ounce of prevention equals a pound of cure"-this is it. Many patients are costing hospitals numerous ER write-offs, and then being treated with thousands of dollars worth of treatments after the fact in medicaid funds.

The sad thing about this situation is that the ER visit usually does not solve the problem. The patient receives an antibiotic, a letter telling them to see a dentist, and perhaps limited amount of pain killer. The abscessed tooth which caused the problem is rarely extracted. The patient walks out the door feeling better, and is returning back to the ER six months later for the exact same issue, plus several new issues. It's a revolving door.

Do I want the government telling me what has to be in my water? Nope. Do I want to invest in putting flouride in the water as a taxpayer? Not really, but compared to paying to treat the patients after the fact, it's a bargain. Treatment after the fact is significantly more expensive, and as a dentist working on three, four, and five year olds- not really fun either.

[dentist90]

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

I have, and have always had well water, it's filtered, but it tastes really good, and in fact, we just replaced the jet well pump in our basement and went with a 3/4 HP 220 submersible pump.....so much quieter and more pressure as well. I just sanitized the well last week with 3 gallons of vinegar, and 1 gallon of bleach, and did a water test to find that all the results were good, and it was safe to drink again.

I've never had fluoride in my water except for at work, unless the water softner system salt contains any.....never thought about it.

Sounds like you've effectively checked your watersource for bacteria and protozoa. That is good because waterborne coliforms will kill you faster than lead in the water. But I'm sure you know that the taste test does not reveal much, except maybe sulfur, iron and other stinky stuff. You will not taste arsenic in the water, nor lead. The only way to know that your well water contains no fluoride is to have it chemically analyzed. Always a good idea, or ask your neighbors what's in their water if they've had it done. Usually wells in an area at the same depth will draw from the same aquifer.

[afterburn 549]

Just another carcinogenic .