Question about concrete problems and builder liability

[MBAtarga]

I don't think you will get any relief from the builder. Maybe if this happened in the first year....

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by TimT

Also hate to break this to you... the concrete slab might be fine... (except for the poor surface finish).... the house might be settling and upsetting the driveway at the garage entrance.... stranger things have happened...

House is on 52 cassons with a floating basement floor, Unfortunately garage was on sand. We are on bentonite for sure, as is most of our town. There is no where else I see any evidence the house is moving. Front/back porch, steps, etc show no evidence of heaving.

[SCadaddle]

My thought would be to discuss the situation with someone that grinds concrete floors/slabs, should be a relatively inexpensive repair compared to tearing everything out and replacing.

Check out the video in this link:

Floor Grinding and Shaving - Ohio Concrete Serving Toledo | Columbus | Cleveland | Dayton | Cincinnati.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

So you paid to build a custom home - did you bother to have anyone oversee construction or did you just hand everything over to the General Contractor?

If it's the latter (and it sounds like it is) you kind of deserve what you're getting, sorry to say. Any time you're spending money for construction you really ought to have somebody who knows the industry advocating on your behalf. This is why on bigger jobs owners pay to have Clerks of the Works, Construcuon Managers, testing agencies and / or architects and engineers out there regularly to see what's going on.

I realize residential is a different animal but in my experience the GCs that "specialize" in residential construction are bottom-of-the-barrel anyway - particularly the subs. There are some great ones and some real craftsmen but the residential construction industry is chock-full-o guys who think they walk on water (and whose work sucks in actuality) or that are flat-out scheisters. Be wary. This is one reason I won't touch residential work (no fee in it, fickle / cheap owners and the worst the contracting world has to offer - no thanks).

Anyway (as has been said) there is very little recourse that you're going to have past the standard one-year labor and materials warranty. Even if you were to put in a claim with the manufacturer of the product they're going to point to "improper installation" and the onus would be on you to prove it was installed properly (good luck with that).

These guys know how to play the game and frankly they get away with it so often it makes it worth their while to keep doing it this way.

Most houses are built to flip or end up being sold within 3 to 5 years anyway so tell me - where is the incentive for them to use 10, 15, 20 or longer year products and workmanship quality? This is why for residential in particular you really need an owners advocate during construction but (like I've said before) the nature of residential ("el cheapo") makes it the least likely construction project type where you'll get an owner who understands this and is willing to spend money on CA (Construction Administration) services, so you get what we've got - lots of piss-poor residential construction and lots of sleazebag, fly-by-night contractors willing to take advantage.

Sorry to hear of your trouble. As has been suggested it sounds like you're probably looking at a full demo, re-prep and compaction of the top couple of feet underneath, followed by a new slab. If you're going to stay in the house it might well be worth it.

[javadog]

Kind of harsh, there, Mr. P-O-P. If you actually read what he wrote, he had nothing to do with the build. It was finished before he came along.

I'd wait and see if the spalding gets worse and occurs in other areas, before addressing it. If it is limited to the one area, you could just cut that out and replace it. Not a big deal.

The other problem is more serious. It could be settlement or heaving. Hard to say without seeing it in person. You might want to get an engineer out there to look at it in person, before deciding what to do.

Doubt you'll get anything out of the builder but it doesn't hurt to ask him.

JR

[Nickshu]

Thanks Java, I agree a bit harsh. Like I said in the original post, I am 100% planning to stomach the cost of removing and replacing all this concrete. I was just asking the question about the builder/contractor b/c it's in the back of my mind before I shell out the $20 Grand for this job.

[javadog]

I'd figure out the cause of the heaving before fixing it. If it has to do with expansion of the subgrade from moisture, you want to address that first. If you don't, the problem may come back.

JR

[Porsche-O-Phile]

A bit harsh yea (and sorry for that) but I deal with this kind of stuff daily and I guess I'm just pretty jaded at this point - same BS over and over. Contractors are (for the most part) all the same - lots of bravado, tough talk and machismo (which they try to pass off as "expert knowledge", which actually works on some people), coupled with a distinct willingness to screw over their own mothers for a buck. There are some great ones who truly embody the term "craftsman" or "tradesman" and who are genuine gentlemen and who care about their long-term reputations but they're outnumbered 10-to-1 (maybe more like 50-to-1 for some trades) by the unscrupulous doofuses. It gets tiresome after a while.

Anyhow I hope you get good resolution to the issue at hand - in the absence of actual testing data I'd say your best bet is to plan on a full replacement. It's possible that's overkill but for a small-ish installation the cost of professional testing and analysis (at least $3k-$4k I'd think) might bring you right to the cost of a full replacement anyway, even if it were to find that a less invasive method might work.

I hope it works out well and it's the end of your problems. Truly. Sorry for my start-of-week, pre-coffee cantankerous tone before.

[chapo]

Of course I see the other side of it POP, arrogant architects with incomplete designs that do not work with the structural drawings, charge exorbitant fees with little help after the project starts, think they walk on water, etc. I guess you never worked with a good contractor, must be some pretty low budget projects.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Quite the opposite actually - like I said, I stay away from residential work for a number of reasons. Mostly I'm involved in big civic, institutional and commercial stuff. Used to do retail but frankly a lot of that isn't much better (glorified residential Type 5 stuff, same lousy contractors and same cheap-ass owner mentality). Glad I'm out of that scene and involved in higher-profile work.

Like I said, there are a fair number of good trades but they're unfortunately outnumbered by schlubs and scheisters - that goes for GCs and for subs.

And FWIW I agree - can't stand dealing with "ivory tower" architects. I much prefer dealing with those who excel at CA - my favorite part of the job actually! That's where stuff actually happens (and where you see all the screw-ups and cover-ups first hand!)

[vash]

is that happening at the neighbor's? same builder?

i'd vote bad curing job. once you get micro cracks, you get water intrustion, and you living in a cold climate..when that water freezes, it does those spalls.

i dont know off the top of my head, but there are certain admixtures you can use if you live in a frost zone..

sucks!!! cuz your driveway still looks better than mine!

[Z-man]

Outside concrete can also erode by the use of salt to melt snow and ice. Had that happen on my poorly poured front stoop of my older home.

-Z

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by chapo

Of course I see the other side of it POP, arrogant architects with incomplete designs that do not work with the structural drawings, charge exorbitant fees with little help after the project starts, think they walk on water, etc. I guess you never worked with a good contractor, must be some pretty low budget projects.

+1

And for comments by P.O.P., many, many overrun construction and disasters for civic and commercial structures. Taxpayer thieves galore. Slacker's, take their damn time, whiners, complainers, bid scams and on. The ego's and finger pointing are to die for. Big city structures of Chicago is a classic example.

Back to the OP. Hope he doesn't have the structure and foundation settling. That's a huge difference and if the case, much larger problems in the future. Hope it all checks OK for him.

All things considered, if the flatwork needs rework, so be it. Replacing a garage slab and driveway might seem messy and quite a project, but better than the above. Expect some nasty vibration, pounding and possible interior finished walls to take a beating.

[911boost]

Nick, where in CO did you end up? Who is the builder?

Bill