Greeks lining up at ATMs

[HardDrive]

The situation with Greece sounds ominous, but there doesn't seem to be much reaction from the markets. Do you think that a Greek exit from the Euro has already been costed into the market, or is optimism that a solution will be found ruling the day? Pull out your crystal ball, what do you see?

Greece Debt Crisis: Lines Form at ATMs as PM Seeks Referendum on Bailout - NBC News

[Porsche-O-Phile]

It's largely already baked in. I doubt too many investors with Greek holdings honestly think they're ever getting that money back. High-risk, high potential return but also a high risk of no return or a loss. That's the game.

Greece is effed. It's a socialist model gone amok - promise everyone everything on someone else's dime, nobody work, nobody innovate. That's the problem with soclism - eventually you run out of other people's money.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

It's largely already baked in. I doubt too many investors with Greek holdings honestly think they're ever getting that money back. High-risk, high potential return but also a high risk of no return or a loss. That's the game.

Greece is effed. It's a socialist model gone amok - promise everyone everything on someone else's dime, nobody work, nobody innovate. That's the problem with soclism - eventually you run out of other people's money.

+1 with one exception
It's a socialist model gone to the inevitable end as usual.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

You're right - gone amok and then to its inevitable conclusion.

[john70t]

How is it socialist?
When we were there everyone was moving fast and working hard. I didn't see many people slacking. The Acropolis is an expensive venture but it is going forward anyways. The main gripe I heard from people was that taxes were not being collected for wealthy real estate (at least) and there were some pretty palatial estates. Everyone was saying "if you buy a house here, don't pay taxes because nobody does". There were also a lot of half-built houses which had something to do with the RE tax structure as well.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Umm, because the public sector expenses have been outstripping the private sector's ability to produce for a long time, forcing deficit spending and borrowing and (when they were under the drachma) money-printing / currency devaluation?

Sound familiar?

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by john70t

How is it socialist?
When we were there everyone was moving fast and working hard. I didn't see many people slacking. The Acropolis is an expensive venture but it is going forward anyways. The main gripe I heard from people was that taxes were not being collected for wealthy real estate (at least) and there were some pretty palatial estates. Everyone was saying "if you buy a house here, don't pay taxes because nobody does". There were also a lot of half-built houses which had something to do with the RE tax structure as well.

Never been to Greece but I'm a second gen Greek. I have allot of Greek friends. Don't confuse the American Greek work ethic from the homeland. Here, we are hardworking wanting to do better. No culture simulated into America faster than the Greek Americans, especially from the great wave in the early 1900's. Im my community, the homies are perceived to be lazy, socialist and anarchists. We were all holding are breath when Greece held the Olympics because no one believed the Greeks would finish it. They had allot of help especially from the Germans.

I don't weep for Greece. It is all their doing.

[aigel]

Debt has been shifted from private banks to governments, so I can see that it is not affecting private markets as much. But the rest of the Europeans are going to foot the bill and the Euro is being devalued to pay for it.

IMHO much of this debt has been racked up by Greece buying weapons (from Germany and France mainly), so they were happy to lend the money and now are looking at not getting paid for some of this.

What kills me is that Greece is what, 8 million people? That's the size of LA. And there is all this racket.

The current administration there is a bunch of gangsters IMHO.

I am a big fan of the European cause - remember, until recently they would consistently bash their heads in every couple decades. They have come a long way. It is unfortunate the Euro currency experiment has failed in bringing people into the union who always had issues with their government financing and used devaluation as a vehicle over decades before coming into the Euro. They should have limited it to countries that were a bit more financially responsible (meaning to exclude Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece).

All this may be a bit naive and certainly opinionated - I am not a Euro expert ...

G

[Evans, Marv]

Back in the '80s, Newsweek Magazine ran an article on the comparisons of States' GDP's with that of foreign countries. I remember at that time, Greece's GDP was about the size of the State of Connecticut. An internet search comparing nations' GDP's with States seems to show about the same.

[sc_rufctr]

It's over... And the Greeks one way or the other will leave the Union.
Their economy, culture and way of life was never compatible with the Germans or French.

The Italians and Spanish will also leave and at the point the whole thing will fall apart.

It was always a STUPID idea. Thanks for that Germany

............ The best thing the British did was to join the Union but keep their currency.
They'll be in the best position when it all comes to an end.

[tabs]

The Greek Finance Minister is a realistic sharpe cookie.

All U Boyz have to offer is just how evil socialism is....what a fking self diddling joke that shows the true ignorance of this group. That is not the question that should be postulated and discussed. The real question is what is going to happen and the ramifications there of.

U can work through the various scenarios and think about the the outcome and ramifications of each.

The Greek deadline is looming and the DOW was up, SP and Nasdq basically flat for Friday....going into the weekend. This does not seem like anybody is on edge. Remember the FED has guaranteed to do what it takes to keep the economy stable...That is why nobody is running around like a chicken with der haids cut off. The Markets are sanguine awaiting what the "deal, deal" is gona be and more importantly what the FED is gona do about it...

My own guess is that Greece is going to have a structured exit from the EU...so that the feathers don't get too ruffled..In my way of thinking that would be the threading of the needle. A resolution.

Otherwise Germany might as well just take over Greece and keep paying out as if it were a Time Share...Greece is way beyond the point of repayment...The Germans should just pay off Greece to go away.

[Taz's Master]

Is this in the end what democracy, as opposed to socialism, will do? Through majority rule force government to spend beyond its means to support a comfortable lifestyle for the populace.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

A good observation and the jury is still out on that. I tend to suspect you're right unless (and only unless) the citizens / voters are smart enough to vote for their futures rather than the promise of easy money / handouts by their government - in other words uphold a democratic system rather than selecting / choosing a socialist one (because it's easier and promises better "free" schwag). As long as we continue to uphold democracy, self-reliance, accountability and economic responsibility / sustainability we're fine. Once we start taking the road of choosing whichever politician promises bigger handouts, we find ourselves on the road to socialist ruin. Socialism inevitably leads to collapse - either economic (Greece, USSR, etc.) or social (due to rebellion after abuse at the hands of a despot or "ruling class").

I'm quite disheartened by what I've seen in recent years. I think we're following this trend now - stupidly voting for whichever corrupt politician promises us more of our own money the government has stolen from us. I love America and our model of government - even with its flaws - is the best in the history of the world. Consider the alternatives. I fear that we're (rapidly) dismantling the system our forefathers put in place with the hope that ther descendants (we) would never have to know the horrors of being voiceless subjects in a totalitarian system. I fear we're quickly morphing from a representative democracy into a socialist state. From there it's a very, very short road to a totalitarian system, whether under a despot (monarchy or dictatorship) or a group of them (communist model). Once that happens there is a potentially long period of suffering, de facto slavery, hopelessness, despair and outright oppression and subjugation until there is a rebellion or economic collapse.

In the context of our world today this is scary because it opens the door to backwards idiocy and false hope of the sort provided by religion (Islam - ISIS in particular) which has the potential to destroy untold millions of lives and hold back human advancement for decades if not centuries. Religion loves poverty and despair. It's easy to sell false hope to people in such situations and control them by claiming you have the key to ending it all (in some future life, if you do exactly what we say...). A theocracy could also result from the disintegration of democracy - with no better result for those living under it than a dictatorship or communist totalitarian society.

Maybe this is a bit dour but I don't know that it's all that far-fetched. We need to collectively get our you-know-what together and stop the march towards socialist collapse and ruin if we're to have any hope of a good future for our kids and grandkids. The potential consequences are exactly what I describe - it's all happened before.

I'll offer what a couple of bright guys have said about this and leave it open for further discussion:

"Liberty is not for these slaves; I do not advocate inflicting it against their conscience. On the contrary, I am strongly in favor of letting them crawl and grovel all they please before whatever fraud or combination of frauds they choose to venerate... Our whole practical government is grounded in mob psychology and.. the Boobus Americanus will follow any command that promises to make him safer." - H. L. Mencken

"The state — or, to make matters more concrete, the government — consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can’t get, and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time it is made good by looting ‘A’ to satisfy ‘B’. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advanced auction on stolen goods." - H. L. Mencken

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." - Alexis de Tocqueville

[sc_rufctr]

A relative just posted this on Facebook. Says it all IMO.

Είναι πια ολοφάνερο σε αυτή την Ευρώπη όχι μόνο η Ελλάδα αλλά πολλές χώρες δεν μπορούν να επιβιώσουν με την πολιτική του άκρατου νεοφιλελευθερισμού. Η ΕΕ αποδείχτηκε ότι δεν έγινε για τους λαούς αλλά για τα κέρδη. Αυτό που συμβαίνει τώρα στη Ελλάδα δεν είναι ένα αριστερό παιχνιδάκι του Τσίπρα. Είναι ότι ο ασθενής που είναι 5 χρόνια στην εντατική αποφάσισε να βγάλει το σωληνάκι για κουράστηκε να ζει με τη χημειοθεραπεία, αργα η γρήγορα αυτό θα γίνοταν ,δεν είναι ένα παιχνιδάκι απλά, ειναι νομοτελειακή κατάληξη. Όπως και είναι νομοτελειακό ότι η Ευροζώνη δεν μπορεί να συνεχίσει να υπάρχει. Έτυχε στη Ελλάδα να κάνει το πρώτο βήμα προς την έξοδο. Αργά η γρήγορα η Ελλάδα θα είναι εκτός, μόνο που σε πολύ λίγο χρόνο θα ακολουθήσουν και άλλοι... Τελικά όσο γρηγορότερα τόσο καλύτερα...

It is now obvious that in Europe not only Greece but many countries can not survive with the policy of unrestrained neoliberalism. The EU proved that it was for the people but for profits. What is happening now in Greece is not a left breeze of Tsipras. Is that the patient who is five years in intensive decided to pull the tube to tired to live with chemotherapy, sooner or later it would happen, it is just a breeze, it is deterministic outcome. As is deterministic that the Eurozone can not continue to exist. He happened to Greece to take the first step towards the exit. Sooner or Greece will soon be out, only in very little time for others to follow ... Finally the sooner the better ...

[red-beard]

So it begins....

Greek Banks will not open tomorrow

Greek Banks Will Not Open Monday
Greece said it would temporarily close banks on Monday in a bid to prevent its banking system from collapsing after the European Central Bank moved to cap the amount of emergency loans it provides for the country's cash-strapped lenders.
The ECB said earlier on Sunday that it wouldn't increase the lifeline of emergency liquidity that has been sustaining Greece's banks, even as nervous Greek depositors appeared to withdraw their money at a greater pace over the weekend.

Greek Banks Will Not Open Monday - WSJ

[Porsche-O-Phile]

So they'll be the first.

Any bets on who / when the next will be? Spain? Portugal? Ireland? All of them (the entire toxic PIIGS sector of the Eurozone)?

Anyone think France or Italy might ditch eventually? If that happens does the whole thing unravel and come apart? If it does, how long until European countries start attacking each other over stupid crap again? God, it's like watching every "peace" in the Middle East - you know it's doomed. You can't change who people are at their cores and the Europeans are hopelessly xenophobic, nationalistic and disconnected from each other at their cores.

I hope for their sake they hold it together. The strongest (and perhaps only) defense against the encroaching poison of Islam is a united Europe. A divided Europe will be a much easier target for the Allah-worshipping diaper heads to undermine and subjugate.

[creaturecat]

an American calling Europeans xenophobic?
that is rich.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

A divided Europe will be a much easier target for the Allah-worshipping diaper heads to undermine and subjugate.

That can cut both ways. Rising nationalism in individual countries can also unleash strong anti minority/immigrant feelings.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

True but sadly I see it more likely the ire would be directed at other former EU partners than the invading hoarde that really threatens them.

Heaven knows they haven't shown much interest in doing anything about it this far!

[varmint]

after the banks collapse what happens next in atlas shrugged?