Liability Question / Advice

Jandrews · 08-16-2015, 10:16 AM

I recognize that there is no such thing as a "guarantee", but looking for directional guidance on a scenario that I have been thinking about. My son and I ride dirt bikes. We hit the woods, trails, enduro course etc, and even the occasional motocross track. We are both experienced, but I would say still high novice/low intermediate level riders. Just recreational stuff.

Now for the question. One of his friends rides too, but I believe he is less experienced than we are (not sure though), but I don't think his experience (or ours) is relevant to my question. Let's say my son and I went to the local woods riding area and took his friend with us. What kind of risk to I have if that kid were to get hurt? My guess is I am 100% exposed, since that kid would technically be under my care when it happened. This particular kid's dad rides and is a more advanced rider. He seems supportive and even suggested we all go together some time. That is probably the best scenario, as I assume I would have little/no risk in that scenario. Just wondering what the protocol is for having my son and a friend ride with us. Probably not a whole lot different than them screwing around in the basement and him breaking his arm (or worse) there.

I don't intend at this point to arrange a ride where the friend joins us without his dad, but I was wondering if there is a way to make that work, or is it just one of those things you just don't do? I even thought about getting an e-mail from his dad that said he was ok with it, but I think this is where all of that is well and good until you have a real incident on your hands.

Just thinking out loud and curious at this point. Like I said, my current thinking is that nothing good comes from this and we should stay away, but I would like to hear some more professional opinions just to educate myself. And by the way, regardless of what the "advice" is here, I would seek my own official advice elsewhere if I were to ever really consider this.

Thanks,

JA

rusnak · 08-16-2015, 10:31 AM

I say bad idea.

ossiblue · 08-16-2015, 10:49 AM

If a child, visiting your home, is injured, your homeowners policy will typically cover medical costs and defend you if a lawsuit develops. In your proposal, since you are not home, that protection would not likely be available. In either case, you can always be sued for negligence--something that cannot be eliminated by a parental waiver. Best intentions and friendships can go south very quickly when personal injuries happen, especially to a child. Your friend may have no intention whatsoever to sue, but if his child is severely injured and medical expenses are high, he may have no choice.

I agree, it's a bad choice. Best bet is to have the father join in on a group ride.

recycled sixtie · recycled sixtie's Garage

On looking back when our daughter was a teenager we would often take a friend for her to ski with. Once we took a friend whose arm was broken and in a cast before she even started skiing and another time we took a friend who we did not see for a few hours. She was a free spirit, a loner, skiing amongst the trees. On looking back we were lucky nothing happened.

In your situation I would say the father must accompany the son or else not take his son.
You need to have fun and not be worrying about a situation you have very little control over.

LakeCleElum · 08-16-2015, 11:51 AM

A person can sue you for just about anything. Where I ride dirt bikes, way back in 1983, a timber company owing some of the land was sued after a kid died on a dirt bike......I don't think the parents prevailed, but it was enough to close the trails for good.

Not worth the risk IMO..

drcoastline · 01:46 PM

Your homeowners (HO-3), renters (HO-4), condo (HO-6) liability insurance follows you anywhere in the world. The only exclusion would be if there was insurance available and you did not purchase it then you can not ask your ho-3, 4, 6 to respond. You are not necessarily 100% liable in a situation. First the parents giving permission to go motorcycle riding with you "could" place some liability on them for allowing their child to participate in the activity. The facility where you ride could have some culpability as well as the rider. Did they not obey the rules, make a mistake, etc.?

In your example there are multiple scenarios that could come into play regarding liability. It depends on what, where, when how an accident occurred would determine your culpability. Far to many possibilities to try and answer in a forum.

First call your insurance agent and find out if liability insurance is available for your bikes. If so your HO-3, 4, 6 policy will not cover the loss. If no coverage is available then your HO-3, 4 or 6 will be primary. In either scenario you should have an umbrella policy to add additional coverage.

LEAKYSEALS951 · 08-16-2015, 02:34 PM

Out of curiosity, how old are these kids?

When I was 12/13- I rode my KDX80 everywhere. No parental supervision. No concern of trespassing/liability/etc. There were about 300 acres of woods up the street. I used every square inch of it. If there is a concern, just take his dad.

Jandrews · 08-16-2015, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcoastline

Your homeowners (HO-3), renters (HO-4), condo (HO-6) liability insurance follows you anywhere in the world. The only exclusion would be if there was insurance available and you did not purchase it then you can not ask your ho-3, 4, 6 to respond. You are not necessarily 100% liable in a situation. First the parents giving permission to go motorcycle riding with you "could" place some liability on them for allowing their child to participate in the activity. The facility where you ride could have some culpability as well as the rider. Did they not obey the rules, make a mistake, etc.?

In your example there are multiple scenarios that could come into play regarding liability. It depends on what, where, when how an accident occurred would determine your culpability. Far to many possibilities to try and answer in a forum.

First call your insurance agent and find out if liability insurance is available for your bikes. If so your HO-3, 4, 6 policy will not cover the loss. If no coverage is available then your HO-3, 4 or 6 will be primary. In either scenario you should have an umbrella policy to add additional coverage.

That's a pretty thorough response right there. Enough to go on to get in touch with my homeowner's insurance and at least have the discussion. I do have regular homeowner's insurance now, of course, and also an umbrella.

I recognize that on its face it does not sound like a great idea. But is it really any different than having a kid getting hurt visiting? Jumping ramps on a bike out front...rough-housing in the basement...god forbid getting bit by your dog...etc... I mean to avoid all "liability risk" you have to lock your kids in the closet and not let anyone else within 100 yards of your house/kids. Just not practical, so I am just poking around to understand how this stuff would work in the real world if there was an incident. And as Bob said, above, anyone can sue you at any time anyway.

And for what it's worth, these kids are 13 going on 14.

Thanks,

JA

drcoastline · 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jandrews

That's a pretty thorough response right there. Enough to go on to get in touch with my homeowner's insurance and at least have the discussion. I do have regular homeowner's insurance now, of course, and also an umbrella.

I recognize that on its face it does not sound like a great idea. But is it really any different than having a kid getting hurt visiting? Jumping ramps on a bike out front...rough-housing in the basement...god forbid getting bit by your dog...etc... I mean to avoid all "liability risk" you have to lock your kids in the closet and not let anyone else within 100 yards of your house/kids. Just not practical, so I am just poking around to understand how this stuff would work in the real world if there was an incident. And as Bob said, above, anyone can sue you at any time anyway.

And for what it's worth, these kids are 13 going on 14.

Thanks,

JA

(It is exactly the same.) Correction, it is very similar. The scenario's quoted above you are assuming more risk, fault, culpability. You can never completely avoid the risk, that's why there is liability insurance. Bob is also correct you can be sued at any time for any reason real or frivolous. In either case the insurance responds and defends against the suit, in most cases the defense costs exceed the award 10-1.

rusnak · 08-16-2015, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEAKYSEALS951

Out of curiosity, how old are these kids?

When I was 12/13- I rode my KDX80 everywhere. No parental supervision. No concern of trespassing/liability/etc. There were about 300 acres of woods up the street. I used every square inch of it. If there is a concern, just take his dad.

City people are just different. They are afraid of literally everything, and get all crazy if anything comes at them from outside of their cocoon of imagined safety. That is why I say "bad idea" to "endanger" their precious snowflake. Leave the kid's friend at home. Go ride in peace. Why you would even think of doing otherwise is just beyond my understanding.