I am of the opinion that the majority doesn;t know what is good for them...

[M.D. Holloway]

As much as I try to be positive...its tough. I really want to believe that people (on the whole) know what is best but everyday I am confronted with the realization that I am mistaken.

My Daughter is studying various types of political systems. She asked "Dad, I know communism is bad but really if you think about it, its just people all trying to do what is best and work together right?"

I thought before I answered. Maybe I didn't think it all out but here is what I said:

"Well, I guess in an ideal world where folks are in it to make the whole society well, and folks are willing to put their person quests and desires aside and work for the common goal like workers bees in a hive then yes, communism is solid. But that's not how people are at all."

She then asked "why not? Why are people like that?"

Now this is a rather in depth question. It speaks to the overall human condition and what makes us tick. I explained my position and left it up to her to develop her own. This is the summary - not verbatim but you will get the idea:

"We live in a great country with an amazing opportunity to really explore and create and look for value and happiness around every corner. We have a pretty darn good gig when it comes to overall quality of life. There may be other places that do it better but we have a pretty diverse society here. For the most part its pretty easy. People really don't have to work really hard to get by now. Years ago it was a different story. Two hundred years ago it was a struggle with health care and lots of manual labor to get things done. I think 100,000 years ago humans (or a close proximity) really had to band to together to survive. Some animals can do it on their own but humans are a pack animal and that worked for the way our bodies are built. Humans are actually pretty fragile compared to many other animals. We needed each other to make it. Today, our mentality isn't that because life is pretty easy compared to the life and death struggle we had to endure tens of thousand of years ago. So, back then every one pitched in. If not then they died. That's not the case anymore. And keep in mind an important fact. People work hard to get - people don't work for the sake of work. Given the opportunity to get something for nothing and folks will always for towards that. also keep in mind that if people know what was best there wouldn't be as much overweight people, drug abusers, and so on. I know men and women and even you that take care of them selves both physically and mentally but you are the exceptions."

She thought about it and said "so democracy wouldn't seem to be the best because people have no clue?"

Now this is a good question - and maybe it belongs in PARF. I said:

"We don't live in a democracy in the strict sense. We live in a congressional republic. So we tend to place more confidence into our regional elected officials then on the popular sentiment. Some say that better while others disagree."

The conversation then got into why people get into politics, how it can be better and what the future may have in store.

I guess it is almost impossible to talk about the human condition with out politics somehow creeping in.

I still do not think the there is an overwhelming amount of folks that really do not know what is best. And when I mean best I mean so basic, fundamental things like physical and mental health, got involved in their community - heck even voted!

How many are on a good diet? How many exercise their minds and bodies? I asked a group of professionals recently how often they have blood work done at a medical check up. The majority get blood taken maybe every 5 years. Wow. And these are 'smart' professionals...

I wonder what it would be like if the majority (maybe >90%) really took care of themselves. Even voted?

[ckelly78z]

It never ceases to amaze me how people in general only care about thier own little world surrounding them, and thier possesions. There is a common disregard for other humans and animals in this world, because it takes too much of thier time and effort to show show good will. This goes to the heart of driving a car any distance and trying to survive the all the selfish douchebags on the road who only have thier own concerns in mind. This is also the heart of the problem with America lately and how everyone is offended by anything that doesn't align with thier own agenda. They feel the need to change everything that doesn't please them because evidently, they know best.

I've often said to my wife that we should buy an island, and just be hermits, and not have to deal with all the self-important publicity seekers who spout thier garbage for all to hear.

[Rickysa]

r/K theory:

If you provide a population with free resources, those who will come to dominate the population will exhibit five basic traits, called an r-selected Reproductive Strategy. These traits are all designed to best exploit the free resource availability. In nature, the r-selected strategy is best seen in the rabbit, which lives in fields of grass it will never fully consume. The five traits are, competition and risk avoidance, promiscuity, low-investment single parenting, earlier age of sexualization of young, and no loyalty to in-group. These traits are ultimately designed to maximize the numbers of offspring produced. Each of these offspring, though of lesser fitness, will be able to survive and reproduce freely themselves, due to the free resource availability. In r-selection nobody ends up dead, and killing or being killed is not a concern.

There is also a strategy exactly opposite to the rabbit's. There, where resources are scarce, competition for resources is everywhere, and some individuals will die due to failure in competition, and the resultant resource denial that this produces. This produces the K-strategy, which is best seen in the wolf. This strategy also has five psychological traits - competitiveness/aggressiveness/protectiveness, mate monopolization/monogamy, high-investment two-parent child-rearing, later age of sexualization of young, and high loyalty to in-group. This psychology is designed to form highly fit and competitive groups that succeed in group competition, all while capturing and monopolizing the fittest mate possible, as a means of making their offspring genetically fitter than those of competitors. Here, the goal is not to simply consume as much as possible yourself and produce as many baby-making machines as you can, with little regard to their fitness. Here, the goal is to help your group succeed in its competition for the scarce resources, and then produce offspring of as high a fitness as possible, so they may carry your genes forward by succeeding in competition themselves. It is obvious why every r-strategy ideal would act as a repellent to a K-strategist, since each ideal would guarantee failure in the K-selected environment.

from: The Evolutionary Psychology Behind Politics (2014)


cut and paste due to shortage of time at the moment...will return

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

It never ceases to amaze me how people in general only care about thier own little world surrounding them, and thier possesions.
.......
.......
.......
I've often said to my wife that we should buy an island, and just be hermits, and not have to deal with all the self-important publicity seekers who spout thier garbage for all to hear.

[ckelly78z]

Originally Posted by berettafan

While dealing with the public, I try to be as considerate and polite as possible, while it seems most people do whatever pleases them, with little regard for others. I understand the "irony" but everyone has a dream of chucking it all and living simply.

[varmint]

"Well, I guess in an ideal world where folks are in it to make the whole society well, and folks are willing to put their person quests and desires aside and work for the common goal like workers bees in a hive then yes, communism is solid. But that's not how people are at all."



wrong. communism, socialism, fascism are about forcing individuals to put aside their personal quests and serve the state.

[red-beard]

https://youtu.be/1EY7lYRneHc

[Hawkeye's-911T]

With the thread title in mind, I do sometimes wonder if a benevolent dictatorship (if there ever could be such a thing) might be the answer -- just a thought.

Cheers
JB

[Nickshu]

I am not a communist or a socialist at all but if you read Karl Marx's original work he believed that the transition to Marxism (or communism more or less) would have to be a natural evolution and if it were imposed by any government it would fail (which has been proven true by several countries who tried it).

We had to read his work in a philosophy course I took on college. Sometimes when I look at where we are at as a country I think some stages of that natural evolution that he predicted are occurring.

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

It never ceases to amaze me how people in general only care about thier own little world surrounding them, and thier possesions.

The illusion of central position. Google it.

[sammyg2]

This country was founded on a basic principle, one of PERSONAL FREEDOM.

People have the right and ability to make their own decisions, to do what they feel is best, and the balance of that will resolve issues.
And that has proven to work the best and fails when the jackholes start making decisions for others. They try to take away personal freedom.


So let's look at the alternatives:
some JACKHOLEs decide they know what's best and convince other JHs to pass all kinds of laws restricting personal choice. No smoking, no large sodas, no gas guzzling vehicles, etc.

They collectively force people to live a certain way, do certain things, dictated by the well-meaning JHs.
And for the most part its OK for a while.
Hay, it's for the common good, right?
Why should individuals have the right to do what's only good for them when we can force them to do what's good for everyone?

And it catches steam and builds momentum until the concept of personal freedom has been completely irradiated and replaced with pure socialism.
Everyone does what they are told by the gubmint because it's what's good for the "people".

Individuals have no power, the gubmint has ALL the power.
Then in the blink of an eye, the gubmint STOPS deciding what's good for the people and starts deciding what's good for the GUBMINT.
It switches from socialism to pure communistic dictatorship in an instant.

People argue which is right wing and which is left wing, they don't understand that it is a circle. Once it swings too far left, it completes the loop and ends up on the extreme right. From socialism to communism and it all starts when people give up their personal freedoms.

Then, the gubmint decides that some people are NOT good for the gubmint.
Some people are a threat to the dictatorship, so they must be ELIMINATED.
That's what is best for the gubmint.

Gun owners? Eliminated. religious folks? ELIMINATED.
Bill of rights? HA long gone.

And as the gubmint gets stronger and more paranoid it starts eliminating more and more people: Scientists. Educators. business owners, land owners.
20 million die in the purge, 40 million die in the revolution, 12 million die in the extermination.

This is not fantasy, this is what is called HISTORY. It has already happened.
So the next time some mindless ignorant jackhole starts suggesting that communism really isn't that bad of an idea, straighten him or her out and 'splain what really is and what really is not.

Otherwise their good intentions could result in the elimination of your family, your neighborhood, maybe your entire town.

My mother in law was born in China, but her parents were Russian.
The gubmint decided it should own all property, especially farms.
Her parents owned a farm.
the gubmint said from now on anytime a farm owner dies, the farm is automatically inherited by the gubmint.

Then the gubmint started MURDERING all the farmers and inheriting their land.
My MIL's parents fled with what they could carry to save their lives, and barely crossed the border to escape their own gubmint.
Many of her family and her family's friends did not escape.
A few weeks later my MIL was born in a foreign country, a refugee.

You try to tell her that communism isn't really that bad and that we should try it, she'll hit you over the head with whatever she can find that is heavy or sharp.

And IMO she'll be justified in doing so.


EDIT: why is this not in PARF?

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by varmint

"Well, I guess in an ideal world where folks are in it to make the whole society well, and folks are willing to put their person quests and desires aside and work for the common goal like workers bees in a hive then yes, communism is solid. But that's not how people are at all."

Someone said "the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship".
However as good as that sounds the most difficult problem is with the "benevolent" part.
Dictatorship = ultimate power and we all know what they say about ultimate power.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Someone said "the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship".
However as good as that sounds the most difficult problem is with the "benevolent" part.
Dictatorship = ultimate power and we all know what they say about ultimate power.

i think this is one of the draws of religion. the notion of essentially a benevolent dictatorship, but instead of the fundamental flaw of that dictatorship being a person with all the failures, and flaws implied, but a perfect being.

its a compelling "solution" to the world around folks. a way to believe in something and "know" its right, without actually having to think or work, or help.

i believe that given factual information, people tend to make pretty good choices. not always, but i think most people are trying. i think most poor decision making comes from bad information/experiences.

[cstreit]

Someone reminded me today that human beings are apex predators. I think we're genetically wired to attempt to accumulate resources to our own benefit. Whether that's mammoth meat or financial influence is irrelevant.

I think we're more wolves that rabbits.

[john70t]

But hey wolves are communal.
Communism.

There's a pecking order, sure, but the group always needs to stay cohesive (big waggy tail).

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by cstreit

Someone reminded me today that human beings are apex predators. I think we're genetically wired to attempt to accumulate resources to our own benefit. Whether that's mammoth meat or financial influence is irrelevant.

I think we're more wolves that rabbits.

turns out we are apes.

apes it turns out best evolutionary advantage, is being social and having and forming cohesive groups. we are not loan hunters. we are not loaners, or a solo species (like lions etc), we are a community species. and we are the children of those groups that worked together because there young were at an advantage over those who did not work together.

socialism is inherent in any social structure. in order for there to be some order, some price is paid. this is why those who try to define socialism as evil misunderstand. socialism is a tool, like a screw driver. if you have hex bolts, a screw driver isn't evil, its just not a very good tool for the job. some things socialism is great for: infrastructure, utilities, technology development and research, heathcare (and i don't mean the ACA, i mean that ALL health insurance is by its nature, socialism) etc other things, its not very good for, like consumer electronics, or automobiles. turns out the socket set (capitalism) is a better tool for that and many other jobs.

[cairns]

I have to agree with the OP.

We rate 16th in world infrastructure.
Our students are among the bottom of the civilized world when tested on Science and Math and they're far from the top on other subjects.
1 out of 4 bridges in this urgently needs repair or faces the risk of collapse.
Only four of our airports rank in the world's top 50.
Our country is run by a feckless, narcissistic coward supported by an entrenched liberal media. He has made the world a far more dangerous place and our position in it far less secure. His actions have led to the death of over a quarter million people in Syria alone.
The best the Democrats can come up with as a successor is..... Hillary.
The right has it's own problems and needs to decide if they want to protest and get toasted by that liberal media or get things done. There are plenty of idiots on the right think a Trump or a Cruz is the answer to our problems.

I could go on and on but why bother.

There is an entreached bureaucracy and industry serving both sides of the aisle that is ruining our country. Our government is, for all intents and purposes, dysfunctional.

We can't even agree on a highway bill and we place our children's education in the hands of union scumbags.

I hope the pendulum will start to swing the other way but I'm not holding my breath.

[black73]

Hello PARF?

I think, in general, people know what is good for them. Take elected officials, for example. They know what is good for them. Unfortunaetly, what is good for them is rarely good for the people they were elected to represent.

[Jim Richards]

Why the **** is this posted in PPOT and not in PARF? Just curious.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Sorry, but the concept that "we" don't know what is good for ourselves is BS. I'm fairly certain that I can personally manage every facet of my life in a better way than the government. Or any of you for that matter.

That attitude, prevalent in Washington, shows an incredible amount of arrogance.