Thoughts about 718 Engine Note?

[pksystems]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Since when has raw power been the selling point of a Porsche?

It's not, but usually Porsche is competing with more expensive performance cars.

I guess they lowered the bar.

Everyone makes a turbo 4 with this much power.
Subaru, Mitsu, Ford, VW.......

They should have focused on weight reduction. This thing is heavier then the old boxster.

[javadog]

A stock 930 exhaust pops and burbles on the overrun and nobody seems to complain about that...

I'm more interested in how a car drives than a lot of you guys. With 350 hp, and the flat torque curve that you'll get from turbocharging, that chassis will finally have enough power to match its fine handling. No complaints from me.

A four cylinder can sound just fine, albeit different than a six. Porsche has a very long history with four cylinder cars and having heard them all, count me as a fan.

How it sounds, whether it has the "right stance" or whatever is secondary to how it drives and I doubt it would disappoint anybody with an open mind.

Don't blame Porsche for going down this road, just kill the politicians that foist the draconian new rules down their throat.

JR

[onewhippedpuppy]

Different strokes I guess, I find the sound of an engine to be a major part of the driving experience. Short of a racetrack you can't really utilize all of your 350 HP, but a silky smooth, responsive, and sonorous engine can be enjoyed at any time. I think most modern street cars have dramatically exceeded real world usable HP. I'd much rather have an involving driving experience than power bragging rights.

[scottmandue]

It is a shame Porsche doesn't doesn't have more experience with turbos

As far as power... the Porsche aftermaket is huge... I would be very surprised if the tuners are not even already planing mods.

***cough {RUF} cough***

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I've posted on here before that anyone who finds a 986/987 or 996/997 to be boring needs to drive one with a performance exhaust. Porsche gave them entirely too much muffler from the factory, a good exhaust adds so much to the experience overall. I don't pretend to understand exactly what gives different engine types their distinct sound, only that each type has it. You will never be able to replicate the raspy flat-six howl with a flat-four, just like an inline-4 will never sound like a V-8. There are few engines that can match a flat-six at full song.

It probably won't be a big deal to the average 718 buyer, most of which will probably be more concerned about styling or luxury features. But the loss of the NA flat-six is a big deal to me, and the 718 is far less appealing because of it.

The 911 is unique because of the combination of high frequency whirr from the cooling fan and the bass of the combustion events. GT3 or other stinger style exhausts seem to have a strange, sometimes grating noise that I can only describe as sounding like a trumpet. They get some sort of interference that changes the pitch or the color of the sound.

With equal exhaust systems it's all about firing order. Inline and flat 4's have the same crankshaft usually so they sound basically the same if they both have 4-2-1 or 4-1 exhaust. A 6 has evenly spaced combustion events so if you have one running at 2/3 the rpm of a 4 they can sound similar.

There is a four cylinder that sounds like a V8 (and I'm not talking flat plane crank V8 because they sound just like a four cylinder). The modern Yamaha R1 with the uneven firing order sounds like a normal cross plane V8.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Different strokes I guess, I find the sound of an engine to be a major part of the driving experience. Short of a racetrack you can't really utilize all of your 350 HP, but a silky smooth, responsive, and sonorous engine can be enjoyed at any time. I think most modern street cars have dramatically exceeded real world usable HP. I'd much rather have an involving driving experience than power bragging rights.

I think you miss my points. I couldn't give two ****s about bragging rights. And, I'm not saying 300 hp isn't enough, let alone 350. What I am saying is that I think people will find these engines to be pretty entertaining. Turbocharged engines usually make a lot of torque in the midrange and Porsche's recent expertise has made the turbos completely transparent. I recently sold a Boxster S that made over 300 hp. No complaints about the top end, but there was a fair bit of wait between normal cruising rpm's and the real power band, when I put my foot in it. Yes, I could always downshift two or three gears but sometimes its nice just to plant your foot and go. Drive a modern turbo Porsche and see what I mean.

The other thing is that I think the average enthusiast has gotten to the point where its more important to them how their car looks or sounds, or what they look like in it, than how it drives. Look at the "right stance" thread in the 911 forum for examples. Or look at how many people ask which looks better on their 911, a ducktail or one of the various spoilers that came after it. You never hear "which one works better?" The guys that throw on an aftermarket muffler ought to spend some time, up close and personal, with a '65-'67 911, before they decide their muffler unleashed more of the "911 sound."

My .02, but I'm an older fart than some of you...

JR

[rusnak]

I just want to point out that the topic of this thread IS about the sound.

The turbo 4 in the video link really doesn't do much for me in terms of how it sounds.

The scream of an air cooled flat blade 911 fan is just so addictive, I come back to it every time. You hear that much more than the exhaust, unless you're running some sort of exhaust that will rob power for the sake of sound, or unless you're running some super high compression, in which case you're a crazy loon who has to buy race fuel.

[scottmandue]

All this reminiscing and comparing to an air cooled flat six is pretty much apples and oranges isn't it?

How does the exhaust note of a 991 compare to a air cooled flat six?

Might as well be lamenting that the current crop of American V8's don't sound anything like the muscle cars of the 1960's.

[rusnak]

Actually the 1960s muscle cars were not as potent as the early 1970s models, and the sound got better and better through the 1980s as a result of aftermarket tuning.

I drove the Cayman S this morning, and the exhuast in Sport mode is absolutely delicious. But the whole sound of my 3.2 911 from 1984 still beats it for me in terms of excitement and passion. The air cooled 911s are really that good, even by today's standards. I don't find that reminiscing so much as it is observation. The Cayman is probably more efficient, covering ground faster and braking harder. They are both equally an onslaught on your senses, just in different ways.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by rusnak

I just want to point out that the topic of this thread IS about the sound.

Well, given we're all hearing it through some ****ty computer monitor speakers, I don't think anybody can make an informed judgement.

I say, wait until you hear a real one. Might be better than you think.

95% of the people that ***** about the sound of a current F1 car are listening to it on their TV. Not the same, by a long shot. They sure do complain, though...



JR

[rusnak]

Who's computer speakers are you callin' ****ty?

[javadog]

Mine, for a start...

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by javadog

Well, given we're all hearing it through some ****ty computer monitor speakers, I don't think anybody can make an informed judgement.

JR

How do you know I'm not listening to it on my 5.1 cell phone speakers?

[afterburn 549]

Its hard to be mad a 4 cylinder, esp when we know Offenhauser produced 1000 hp from them without computer gizmos .
yes it was a straight inline four, bit still....
It was not to be scorned.

[David]

My flat six Cayman S pops on overrun too so if you don't like it on the 718 you wouldn't like it on the six either. I like the sound of the new flat four. I'd like the added torque without much lag that modern turbo fours have too. If the used market is strong for sixes because of the new four, I'd gladly trade in.

[afterburn 549]

This will be the new 912 / 911 thing...............

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by javadog

I think you miss my points. I couldn't give two ****s about bragging rights. And, I'm not saying 300 hp isn't enough, let alone 350. What I am saying is that I think people will find these engines to be pretty entertaining. Turbocharged engines usually make a lot of torque in the midrange and Porsche's recent expertise has made the turbos completely transparent. I recently sold a Boxster S that made over 300 hp. No complaints about the top end, but there was a fair bit of wait between normal cruising rpm's and the real power band, when I put my foot in it. Yes, I could always downshift two or three gears but sometimes its nice just to plant your foot and go. Drive a modern turbo Porsche and see what I mean.

The other thing is that I think the average enthusiast has gotten to the point where its more important to them how their car looks or sounds, or what they look like in it, than how it drives. Look at the "right stance" thread in the 911 forum for examples. Or look at how many people ask which looks better on their 911, a ducktail or one of the various spoilers that came after it. You never hear "which one works better?" The guys that throw on an aftermarket muffler ought to spend some time, up close and personal, with a '65-'67 911, before they decide their muffler unleashed more of the "911 sound."

My .02, but I'm an older fart than some of you...

JR

I used to have a 996TT, I know exactly how Porsche can make a turbo engine seamless. I have no doubt that the 718 will be a great driving car, I just doubt it will sound as good doing it. To me that's a big deal, but everybody has their own priorities. Not that Porsche cares about me anyway, I don't think I've owned a Porsche that was newer than 5 years old at the time of my ownership.

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I used to have a 996TT, I know exactly how Porsche can make a turbo engine seamless. I have no doubt that the 718 will be a great driving car, I just doubt it will sound as good doing it. To me that's a big deal, but everybody has their own priorities. Not that Porsche cares about me anyway, I don't think I've owned a Porsche that was newer than 5 years old at the time of my ownership.

Yeah, I think you nailed it here: Porsche has no intention of making the 718 cars NOT great, but they have been struggling for nearly 10 years now with the problem of "how do we make the Cayman great while still making sure that the 911 is special?" At first, it was by limiting the Cayman's power, but those HP totals crept up and even Porsche couldn't resist the urge to build the GT4.

I bet they had a meeting and said something like "okay, we pretty much HAVE to keep putting big engines in the Cayman S and Boxster S; how do we ensure that those customers will still kinda feel 'less than' those who bought a 911? What makes the 911 truly special?"

Well, what differentiated the 911 from the 928 and 944 Turbo back in the late 80s, when both of the front-engined cars were sorta kicking ass in car magazine group tests?

That sweet, sweet flat six engine.

Again, no doubt that the 718s will be fantastic cars. Alls I'm sayin is that the engine note is nowhere near as wonderful as the flat-six. It's not that it pops and burbles -- that's cool, and my Cayman S does that on overrun as well. That's not the issue -- the issue is that my Cayman S screams like a flat-six should and THEN pops and burbles on overrun; it doesn't fart a little bit and then pop and burble a la the car in the video.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I used to have a 996TT, I know exactly how Porsche can make a turbo engine seamless.

You should spend some time in a 991 turbo. They've made a bunch of progress since yours was built.

JR

[bobsven]

Does anyone want to discuss reliability and maintenance of a turbo 4 versus a non turbo boxer 6 cylinder of similar HP?


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