If this doesn't make you want to visit Tokyo, nothing will!

[Cajundaddy]

I have travelled quite a bit but never to Japan. Someday. We hosted Japanese exchange students for 4 years when my kids were young and gained an appreciation for the people and culture. We have an open invitation to stay with two of our students over there but wifey won't go. They were so humble but always loved the flashy, glitzy, over the top stuff and there is no harm in that. I probably won't be fitting Lambo doors with flashing LEDs to my Porsche anytime soon. Not my cup-o-tea.

[JavaBrewer]

"I'll never understand the Japanese or their preoccupations" Anthony Bourdain

Anthony Bourdain No Reservations Season 4 Tokyo - Video Dailymotion

EDIT
This is the link I originally intended to include here
CNN Parts Unknown - Tokyo Click the "After Dark" Link.

Agree. For all the dramatic history that I love and the overwhelming pride of country, there is another side of Japan that IMO is not all that great. Example: dirty panties in vending machines, supposedly worn by prepubescent girls. There is something strange with the Japanese culture that, again IMO, is rooted in a weird perversion with male-female dominant role playing. I have read some material on it and there are ties to the overworked culture, holy crap the working masses there are overworked, that contributes to the need to be dominant. It seems a very rare ring to grab in Japan...unless those around you are from China or Korea.

Again I can't wait to visit Japan again. I have been to the far North and South of the country and a couple places in between as well as the island of Okinawa. Like Richard says the area is rich in culture and an absolute joy to explore. A huge fan of the social makeup I am not. But then I was raised in a small town in Cali and don't know better

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by motion

I am absolutely infatuated with Kyoto. I've been several times and have just barely scratched the surface. In some other cities, New York, for example, I'm bored after 24 hours.

Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Wife and I are looking for compelling reasons to travel any more.

[group911@aol.co]

I always assumed the reason most people traveled was to see something different than what they would see at home.

[ckelly78z]

I can't say I want to be part of that scene, but it would be entertaining to see some of the creations up close, and be able to talk to the car builders......truly innovators, and doing their own thing. Kinda like the Japanese version of hotrodding.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Wife and I are looking for compelling reasons to travel any more.

Never been to Tokyo.
I did spend a bit of time biking all over most of Kyoto with day trips to Nara(deer petting park) Osaka(industrial district and castle) Himeji(castle) and Hikone(castle) to the south.
Small area Arashiyama just to the north has gorgeous leaves in the fall with some tight vertical switchback mountain roads around.
Another trip I spent few days to small town of Kofu(below Fuji wooded and gorgeous) and a historic Onsen bath house where I got some uncomfortable stares from some tough guys. The locals wanted to keep it that way and I didn't blame them. The Japanese rarely let their daily poker face slip and only for a good reason. Take heed. As a obtuse American I always felt like the proverbial bull in the china shop. They rarely make new superficial friendships easily like us but when they do they are fully obligated. Everyone Japanese is connected by long-term relationships and permanently responsible for their actions and very busy. You will always be a Gajin (foreigner) to them. Don't be offended.

It's important to speak quietly and friendly, please and thank you to people always, know basic language, never stare at people, wear neutral colors, and do not smell of anything(no sented perfume or cologne).

Public bathrooms are scarce and most are the knee-breaking hole-in-the-floor. You'll probably get stopped up from a primarily white rice diet(take small doses of magnesium if so). You'll be exhausted from walking at their pace, and weather can be very hot or cold.
Besides the airport, the only place I found to change dollars was a single bank downtown and it was a bit of a hassle.


Kyoto was the original capital and still has a bit of the old ways left, but these are fast disappearing with modernization. Compared to the centralized top-down industrial military shogun samurai Tokyo, Kyoto was/is more Emperor compartmentalized artistic stylized subtle liberal and demure.
-Many temples Temples to Visit in Kyoto
-For a bit of Kyoto history, take a long vigorous hike to what is left of the radical temple complex of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enryaku-ji
-Matcha tea houses https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best-tea-houses-to-visit-in-Kyoto?share=1. with exquisite teas. Watch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikyu_%28film%29 for a bit of the history.
-There is the crowded cherry viewing When Is Cherry Blossom Season In Kyoto? but housing will be difficult to find.
-Walk through geisha district of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gion during the day, but the houses are off limits to westerners and/or tourists.
-Markets Nishiki Market (Kyoto, Japan): Address, Phone Number, Tickets & Tours, Attraction Reviews - TripAdvisor and Kyoto Flea Markets | Japan Blog - Tokyo Osaka Nagoya Kyoto
-In the spring I'd recommend temple viewing: When Is Cherry Blossom Season In Kyoto?
-In the fall I'd recommend to the north: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arashiyama
-More: http://www.lonelyplanet.com/japan/kansai/kyoto

[motion]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Wife and I are looking for compelling reasons to travel any more.

I think John touched on a lot of the aspects very nicely. For me, the temple district along the eastern part of the city is fascinating. Last year, I was there for sakura and it was enough for me just to watch the Japanese and their celebration of this beautiful event. Anything else was icing on the cake. The Gion district, with its geishas, private restaurants, the beautiful Shimbashi Street, which is known as the most beautiful street in Asia, lined with cherry trees and a meandering creek. If you go at night, you can pause and watch diners in the exclusive restaurants, with geishas entertaining.

The area is also full of very expensive ryokans, and small bars that seat only a few people. I've wandered this area for hundreds of hours, and have not had access to any of these restaurants or bars. Some day...

While Tokyo is glitz, pachenko machines, smoking, craziness, robots, geeks and freaks, Kyoto is hushed and reverent. Kyoto IS Japan. And, lucky for us, they mostly close it off to outsiders, so it can survive.

[john70t]

If you go, make sure to try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natt%C5%8D (gross at first but healthy and unique) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigori sake(so tasty it'll creep up and knock ya on yer butt).

In lesser-known temples I liked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chion-in and my favorite was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyomizu-dera which overlooks the city on a clear day.

[Crowbob]

Does the Katsura Imperial Villa outside Kyoto still exist?

The Japanese aesthetic of constantly searching for the highest level of beauty involves serenity, proportion, spacial relationships, strength, simplicity and discipline. The Japanese word for it is 'shibui'. There is no comparable concept in western thought.

As a westerner, the simplest way I've found to understand shibui is to realize that shibui is what I see and what I feel in a Japanese garden.

Katsura Palace. If it still exists, I'd love to go there someday.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by motion

I think John touched on a lot of the aspects very nicely. For me, the temple district along the eastern part of the city is fascinating. Last year, I was there for sakura and it was enough for me just to watch the Japanese and their celebration of this beautiful event. Anything else was icing on the cake. The Gion district, with its geishas, private restaurants, the beautiful Shimbashi Street, which is known as the most beautiful street in Asia, lined with cherry trees and a meandering creek. If you go at night, you can pause and watch diners in the exclusive restaurants, with geishas entertaining.

The area is also full of very expensive ryokans, and small bars that seat only a few people. I've wandered this area for hundreds of hours, and have not had access to any of these restaurants or bars. Some day...

While Tokyo is glitz, pachenko machines, smoking, craziness, robots, geeks and freaks, Kyoto is hushed and reverent. Kyoto IS Japan. And, lucky for us, they mostly close it off to outsiders, so it can survive.

Very profound statement. I think Kyoto is in the hearts of many who know the old identy of Japan, and what makes one Japanese.

[motion]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Very profound statement. I think Kyoto is in the hearts of many who know the old identy of Japan, and what makes one Japanese.

I know you're of Japanese heritage... have you been?

Even amongst the throngs, its easy to sense the Japanese identity in Kyoto. However, I felt it most strongly being the only white male in an onsen in Kinosaki last year. That was a trip! There were WWII-age old guys kind of crowding around me wondering if I was American. We're all nekkid in the onsen. In instances like that, I am always Canadian, LOL.

[rusnak]

I am descended from Samurai on both sides.

My great-grandpa was a proud American. He hated Japan. Hated it with a passion. He taught us that America is the greatest country in the history of the world. He lost a fortune during WWII. We are talking about at least 1,000 acres of farmland. Being Japanese, he was bitter, but believed it was his duty to his President to give up the family possessions. He destroyed battle flags, weapons, everything when they went to the concentration camps. Family heirlooms were burned and destroyed, including precious scrolls and the family crest. After the war, he traded his inheritance, propery outside of Tokyo, in a spectacular complicated trade for all of the ancestral ashes dating back to the 1500s, and buried them in America under a tombstone with English writing. That is how much he slammed the door on Japan.

What he left us is a firm identity that we are not Japanese. My culture is therefore over 100 years old now. It is stuck in time. It does not evolve. I am a man out of time and stuck in the past in terms of valuing the old Japan. I have zero interest in the new Japan. It's just not me. I value the Bushido code, but not the caste system. Not the heterognous culture either. I am not planning to visit Tokyo, Ginza, etc. If i went back there, they would look at me as a foreigner, much as they look at you, but much worse. I would be looked down upon as an expatriate would. I get that from Japanese who come here to my country already.

Motion, I tip my hat to you Sir, as a student of the world. You have my deep respect for that, and I learn from your posts. I really do.

[motion]

Originally Posted by rusnak

I am descended from Samurai on both sides.

My great-grandpa was a proud American. He hated Japan. Hated it with a passion. He taught us that America is the greatest country in the history of the world. He lost a fortune during WWII. We are talking about at least 1,000 acres of farmland. Being Japanese, he was bitter, but believed it was his duty to his President to give up the family possessions. He destroyed battle flags, weapons, everything when they went to the concentration camps. Family heirlooms were burned and destroyed, including precious scrolls and the family crest. After the war, he traded his inheritance, propery outside of Tokyo, in a spectacular complicated trade for all of the ancestral ashes dating back to the 1500s, and buried them in America under a tombstone with English writing. That is how much he slammed the door on Japan.

What he left us is a firm identity that we are not Japanese. My culture is therefore over 100 years old now. It is stuck in time. It does not evolve. I am a man out of time and stuck in the past in terms of valuing the old Japan. I have zero interest in the new Japan. It's just not me. I value the Bushido code, but not the caste system. Not the heterognous culture either. I am not planning to visit Tokyo, Ginza, etc. If i went back there, they would look at me as a foreigner, much as they look at you, but much worse. I would be looked down upon as an expatriate would. I get that from Japanese who come here to my country already.

Motion, I tip my hat to you Sir, as a student of the world. You have my deep respect for that, and I learn from your posts. I really do.

Dude, that is INTENSE! You're grandfather is the kind of man that built the foundation of this country, and I have a lot of respect for him. As we all know, there are a lot of reasons for the Japanese to be ashamed of their policies, and it sounds like your grandfather made a new, proud life for his family in the US, so you really cannot fault him. The American dream is alive in your family.

You could easily visit and observe, like I do. Nobody needs to know anything more. I think you would grow a lot with a visit there, but don't go to Ginza. It's just mostly shopping these days.

[motion]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

Does the Katsura Imperial Villa outside Kyoto still exist?

The Japanese aesthetic of constantly searching for the highest level of beauty involves serenity, proportion, spacial relationships, strength, simplicity and discipline. The Japanese word for it is 'shibui'. There is no comparable concept in western thought.

As a westerner, the simplest way I've found to understand shibui is to realize that shibui is what I see and what I feel in a Japanese garden.

Katsura Palace. If it still exists, I'd love to go there someday.

Thanks for that info. I haven't been to the western area of Kyoto. I'll visit this place in April. I hope you can visit, too.

[Reiver]

No offense but the most racially oriented (in a bad way) society on earth. You are a Gaijin and folks will be polite but you are still an animal.
If you doubt that try going to a Japanese public bathhouse....
I've a Swiss friend that married a Japanese man 30 years ago and lived in Japan for that 30 years.
She was a citizen, spoke fluent Japanese, but was never accepted as 'Japanese' and was constantly abused.
Last year they moved to Switzerland as they were both tired of the racism.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Reiver

She was a citizen, spoke fluent Japanese, but was never accepted as 'Japanese' and was constantly abused.

Sounds like the great movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Trembling_(film)
I know of someone who went through the same thing.

This was explained to me as the more abuse you receive, the more you are being accepted into the group. Becoming 'one of them'. The abuse is like a jumping-in test to find you a place in the social hierarchy that must exist. The extra attention is because they care and want to make you a stronger person. Like a zen teacher beating a student who nods off during meditation. Everyone needs a kick in the ass. If they didn't care they would just ignore you and let you fail.
(Personally, my ego once failed that test to my deep regret and I burned bridges.)

There are some glaring dichotomies in their culture which I will never understand such as denying their various roots from the mainland and the militarization of Buddhism, but I suppose it's their only method of maintaining solidarity in a world which is rapidly changing. If one link fails they all fail. Having so many people living on such a small area, yet still maintaining huge swaths of nature left over, requires unique means of social control.
Not saying it is correct, only that it works.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by Reiver

No offense but the most racially oriented (in a bad way) society on earth. You are a Gaijin and folks will be polite but you are still an animal.

Sadly there is much truth in this.

[pcardude]

Some serious kabuki going on in this thread.

Ive been in a public bathhouse. it was no big deal. very relaxing too.

Ive been the only whitey in the place hanging out with ojiisan and never once felt the need to say I'm from Canada.

You guys are just showing off here right? Telling lies and BSing.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by motion

Dude, that is INTENSE! You're grandfather is the kind of man that built the foundation of this country, and I have a lot of respect for him. As we all know, there are a lot of reasons for the Japanese to be ashamed of their policies, and it sounds like your grandfather made a new, proud life for his family in the US, so you really cannot fault him. The American dream is alive in your family.

You could easily visit and observe, like I do. Nobody needs to know anything more. I think you would grow a lot with a visit there, but don't go to Ginza. It's just mostly shopping these days.

Motion, your post made me LOL.

If I want to be around a bunch of Buddha-heads, I can visit J-Town in LA.

[john70t]

rusnak, thank you for a different perspective. Truly. There are obviously a great number of personal feelings and extensive history involved which only a few posts on the public internet will never explain or repair. As a stranger, I could try to understand or comprehend to some degree, but never would. There were some serious wrongs which occurred in your family past, but the best way to deal with the present and the future is to try to understand them. Right or wrong. Anything may be possible or not.

Enough said.
Gomen kudasai onangaishimasu. Sorry if this was said in the wrong way.