Another tragic plane crash...but this one involves a colleague of mine..really sad...

[2porscheguy]

Along with our former Premier (of the Province of Alberta) Jim Prentice, a well known and respected Calgary Optometrist passed away in a plane crash just north of Kelowna in BC's interior:

Jim Prentice's plane crashed only eight minutes after takeoff, TSB says - Calgary - CBC News

I've known Dr. Ken Gellatly since I first began practicing here in Calgary back in 1984. We're not close buddies by any means but I did associate with him on many occasions over the last three decades....a real gentleman and very well respected amongst his peers. Ken was Jim's daughter's father in law.

The plane involved in this tragedy was a 1974 Cessna 500 Citation 1. The investigation will likely take close to year as there were no "black boxes, etc" on board.

I know that there are many pilots and aviation experts here...can any of you chime in here as to a possible cause? How "safe" is that plane? Any history of mechanical issues in the past? Other than some sort of medical issue with the pilot (he was 62 years old) what could have brought down that plane so fast as it crashed some 8 minutes after take off? I don't believe weather was a factor as it was a fairly calm evening.

Rest in peace Ken and condolences to all families involved!

[Seahawk]

Sorry for your loss. The pictures in the article are heartbreaking in terms of loss and lives changed.

The Citation is a fine aircraft. Best to let the accident investigation play out since many times the initial conjecture proves to be inaccurate.

Again, condolences.

[tdw28210]

Originally Posted by 2porscheguy

Along with our former Premier (of the Province of Alberta) Jim Prentice, a well known and respected Calgary Optometrist passed away in a plane crash just north of Kelowna in BC's interior:

Jim Prentice's plane crashed only eight minutes after takeoff, TSB says - Calgary - CBC News

I've known Dr. Ken Gellatly since I first began practicing here in Calgary back in 1984. We're not close buddies by any means but I did associate with him on many occasions over the last three decades....a real gentleman and very well respected amongst his peers. Ken was Jim's daughter's father in law.

The plane involved in this tragedy was a 1974 Cessna 500 Citation 1. The investigation will likely take close to year as there were no "black boxes, etc" on board.

I know that there are many pilots and aviation experts here...can any of you chime in here as to a possible cause? How "safe" is that plane? Any history of mechanical issues in the past? Other than some sort of medical issue with the pilot (he was 62 years old) what could have brought down that plane so fast as it crashed some 8 minutes after take off? I don't believe weather was a factor as it was a fairly calm evening.

Rest in peace Ken and condolences to all families involved!

I grew up riding around in private single-engine aircraft (Cessna 205 mostly). I never officially got my license but I soloed a bit ; ). My guesses would be either the loss of power to both engines or more likely a stuck aileron that would force the plane to roll over and invert. And a quick (evil) Google search shows that the FAA here in the states issued an aileron warning to Cessna Citation owner/operators back in 2014.

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/safo/all_safos/media/2014/SAFO14001.pdf

Apparently the touchy ailerons in Citations have been cited as the cause of several crashed and near-crashes as recent as this year.

NTSB: Cessna Citation Had Stuck Aileron Trim on Takeoff | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News

Sorry for your loss. I just lost my private pilot father on the 8th of this month.

[Baz]

Sorry to hear of this, Alex....condolences to all affected.

Can't offer any insight as to the crash peculiars.....sorry again!

[creaturecat]

i wondered if he had some connection to the Gellaty Rd in Kelowna. And the old Gellaty farm.
i recognized the crash spot. i rode by there many times on my motorcycle. reasonably low in elevation. something certainly went wrong. quickly.

[rattlsnak]

Type of impact/crash indicates loss of control stall/spin. What could have caused that is what they will have to find out. Even if the engines quit for whatever reason (highly doubtful both would quit) he could have glided to the ground, put the gear down etc. Still would have been an impact but not at the forces described. He made no distress calls which would indicate he was incapacitated or too busy trying to fix what was wrong, or simply disorientated. They didn't say how high they initially got, but 6 minutes in a jet could have easily put them in the low teens if they weren't climb restricted.

Either way, sorry for the loss..

[Eric Coffey]

Sad...always sucks to hear about these. RIP.

[tevake]

Sorry to hear about that Alex.
Knowing someone in this sort of incident really changes the impact of what would otherwise be a sad news story.

Condolences to all friends and loved ones.

Aloha Richard

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by tdw28210

My guesses would be either the loss of power to both engines or more likely a stuck aileron that would force the plane to roll over and invert. And a quick (evil) Google search shows that the FAA here in the states issued an aileron warning to Cessna Citation owner/operators back in 2014.

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/safo/all_safos/media/2014/SAFO14001.pdf

Apparently the touchy ailerons in Citations have been cited as the cause of several crashed and near-crashes as recent as this year.

NTSB: Cessna Citation Had Stuck Aileron Trim on Takeoff | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News

Obviously too soon to know anything for sure, but I'd say that's a pretty good guess.

It would seem the trim system is one of the known shortcomings on the early Citation models (a bit sensitive, and lousy/notchy indicator accuracy).
There were previous issues with the pitch trim as well, and resultant ADs issued. While a stuck/runaway trim is certainly in the realm of possible contributing factors here, any proficient/current Citation driver should be aware of all of the idiosyncrasies of that particular A/C. So, even if it were to be concluded that there was a trim problem, it still doesn't excuse pilot error. It may explain it, but doesn't excuse it IMO. Unless there is a situation that renders the A/C completely un-flyable in any configuration, the PIC is still expected to be able to deal with the problem and fly the plane.

The Citation that went down in Lake Michigan that initiated the SAFO you posted was a prime example pilot error, with trim issues as the primary contributing factor (IMO).
It also seemed like the cliché example of a stubborn captain and a FO too scared to speak up (more).

That brings up another point that sticks out: The prevalence of single-pilot operation with light jets, as was the case here.
Some smaller jets are certified for single-pilot operation, and some that initially were not (like the 500/1 in question) can be SP operated with an STC waiver and the right pilot qualifications.
This is desirable for many flight ops/departments as it eliminates the expense of paying a second pilot. The obvious drawback is the lack of safety/redundancy compared to a 2-pilot crew.

So, if the pilot had an in-flight medical emergency that rendered him unconscious (heart attack, seizure, etc.) resulting in loss of control, recovery by a passenger would be unlikely in most cases IMO, even if one of the pax was a pilot.
It would be even less likely if it happened shortly after take-off with little altitude to work with.

[Rinty]

Alex:

Don't know whether you saw the following item from the CBC:

Jim Prentice's plane crash may have been caused by 'incapacitated' pilot, says former flight safety officer - Calgary - CBC News

One thought I had was that they flew in early in the morning, played 36 holes of golf, followed by dinner presumably, and then fly into instrument meteorological conditions. How tired was the 62 year old pilot? Also, we know he's been flying for 9 years, but we don't know how much turbine time he had, or how many hours he has flown in IMC. I think the TSB will take a close look at his medical records, if they can.

The other thought was that the attitude indicator failed, and he didn't catch it. I don't know whether the auto pilot would decouple in that situation.

Anyway, a real tragedy. Prentice was a neighbour of mine.

[2porscheguy]

^^No I hadn't seen that article yet. Thanks for passing that on Rinty.

Although it is pure speculation at this point, it is quite plausible that a CV (Cardio Vascular) related event might have incapacitated the pilot soon after takeoff. Let's face it...it must have been a "very long" day for the pilot....early am prep plane and flight from Calgary to Kelowna, play 36 holes of golf, have probably a sizeable meal, prep plane and then take off at 9:30 pm. That's probably close to 18 hours of activity which would be well beyond the 8 or so hours which commercial pilots are subjected too. Crap, 18 holes of golf is stressful enough for me, let alone 36 holes!

If this does turn out to be the case, with only one (incapacitated) pilot on board, the catastrophic event may have unfolded so quickly that the 3 other passengers were probably not even aware of the gravity of the situation until it was much too late....sadly!

Does this type of plane have a separate enclosed cockpit for the pilot or is the pilot visible to the passengers at all time?

[JJ 911SC]

Alex,

Mes sincères condoléances.

JJ

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by 2porscheguy

Does this type of plane have a separate enclosed cockpit for the pilot or is the pilot visible to the passengers at all time?

No hard/fixed cockpit door, just a soft split curtain. However, they probably remain stowed most of the time, leaving the cockpit area open/visible.

[rattlsnak]

Originally Posted by 2porscheguy

That's probably close to 18 hours of activity which would be well beyond the 8 or so hours which commercial pilots are subjected too.

Airline pilots, part 121, are allowed to go to 16 hours of duty, Charter, part 135, can go to 14 hours a day and Private, part 91, can go on forever. That being said, contractually, most airlines stop at 12 scheduled, but can be extended due to delays. I have had countless 14-16 hour duty days on bad weather days.

[2porscheguy]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

Airline pilots, part 121, are allowed to go to 16 hours of duty, Charter, part 135, can go to 14 hours a day and Private, part 91, can go on forever. That being said, contractually, most airlines stop at 12 scheduled, but can be extended due to delays. I have had countless 14-16 hour duty days on bad weather days.

I stand corrected!

The TSB has launched their investigation and will also be looking at the pilot's health records. However it may be up to a year before we know what may have caused this unfortunate tragedy.

[2porscheguy]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

Alex,

Mes sincères condoléances.

JJ

Merci JJ! And thanks to all for your condolences.

Ken was also a car guy. At one time he had a Jaguar XKR if I remember correctly. His personalized licence plate......that I do remember very well as it was related to the profession he practiced for more than 35 years....it read: CME2SEE

Rest in peace Ken!

[Rinty]

Originally Posted by 2porscheguy

Does this type of plane have a separate enclosed cockpit for the pilot or is the pilot visible to the passengers at all time?

If there had been a qualified pilot in the back, even with an open cabin he wouldn't have been able to get up front in time to catch the airplane.

I see a thread has been started in PPRuNE:

Former Alberta premier and three others killed in Citation crash in B.C. - PPRuNe Forums