Yawn - Another Pit Bull Thread

[Jeff Higgins]

Baz, you have absolutely refused to address the single biggest topic of concern with these dogs - their breeding. Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to believe that has anything to do with their violent nature serves to greatly diminish your credibility regarding anything at all to do with dogs. Your notion that environment is everything is demonstrably wrong.

Folks like you, in your misguided compassion, actually serve to endanger unwitting potential dog owners. The misinformation concerning dangerous, aggressive breeds that folks like you love to perpetuate can very well lead to some poor family's horrible tragedy. As a matter of fact, I'm quite certain it has, time and time again. That leaves you, and folks singing the same song, at least indirectly responsible every time a pit bull mauls or kills some poor family's precious child. Some poor family that bought one unaware of the potential consequences, because they listened to someone like you - "oh, any breed raised in a loving environment will grow up to be a loving family pet, perfectly incapable of any sort of violent aggression towards anyone..."

How does that make you feel? There certainly are no shortage of news stories concerning the family pit bull that turned on a member of the family and mauled or killed them. Usually a young, helpless member of the family. These are dogs that are raised as beloved family pets, yet they still turn and inflict a great deal of harm. The lies that you and your kind spread about these dogs are at least partly responsible for these tragedies. Totally avoidable tragedies at that. I hope you are proud...

[Baz]

Originally Posted by berettafan

being kind hearted at the expense of others safety just isn't being kind hearted. it's being selfish.

sorry but thats how I feel on the matter. I mean no offense to Baz on this and certainly still like the guy but my opinion is that this breed has no business existing around children or the elderly for that matter and as we can't control who might knock on our door or walk past our yard the breed has no business existing.

Hey I'm right there with you BF, and agree on not being kind-hearted at the expense of other's safety. Those who are irresponsible should receive punishment. Mandatory and very tough!

Anyone careless with their dog.......should get serious jail time.

It's not like a dog can pick and choose where a human takes them.

As I have said before.....the human species can be extremely stupid and careless and in certain ways dog ownership should be taken as seriously as gun ownership.

Get TOUGH on those whose carelessness results in injury or death!

And let's not let just anyone own a dog!

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Baz, you have absolutely refused to address the single biggest topic of concern with these dogs - their breeding. Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to believe that has anything to do with their violent nature serves to greatly diminish your credibility regarding anything at all to do with dogs. Your notion that environment is everything is demonstrably wrong.

Folks like you, in your misguided compassion, actually serve to endanger unwitting potential dog owners. The misinformation concerning dangerous, aggressive breeds that folks like you love to perpetuate can very well lead to some poor family's horrible tragedy. As a matter of fact, I'm quite certain it has, time and time again. That leaves you, and folks singing the same song, at least indirectly responsible every time a pit bull mauls or kills some poor family's precious child. Some poor family that bought one unaware of the potential consequences, because they listened to someone like you - "oh, any breed raised in a loving environment will grow up to be a loving family pet, perfectly incapable of any sort of violent aggression towards anyone..."

How does that make you feel? There certainly are no shortage of news stories concerning the family pit bull that turned on a member of the family and mauled or killed them. Usually a young, helpless member of the family. These are dogs that are raised as beloved family pets, yet they still turn and inflict a great deal of harm. The lies that you and your kind spread about these dogs are at least partly responsible for these tragedies. Totally avoidable tragedies at that. I hope you are proud...

Jeff...you obviously have not read any of my posts. I have said repeatedly that humans should be held accountable. Period.

I don't know any other way to put it.
That covers all stupid chit they do in regards to pit bull issues or with any other breed. Everything!

Certain people should not be allowed to own a dog...let alone breed them. Plenty of worthy rescues in shelters!

Cheers, my friend.

[Jolly Amaranto]

My neighbor down the street has a PB mix. I think it must be half Great Dane, the dog is huge. And powerful. I have never seen a head on a dog so big before. Their son got it as a puppy to train it for weight pulling contests but never got around to it. It is well trained and socialized and I have never had a problem with it. Well one time it scared the crap out of me. At a party one night it came up behind me, stuck it snout between my legs and lifted me off the floor. The son trained it to do that. Ha ha! About a year ago they did have an incident. Some stranger came to the door. There is a narrow window right next to the door that is about 8" wide. The dog smashed the window but could not squeeze more than his head through to attack the stranger. The animal was all cut up by the broken glass along the edges of the window but was uncontrollable. They finally got the dog calmed down enough to extract his head from the window and get him to the vet. Big bill for stitches. I don't visit any more.

[Crowbob]

There is no reason for PB's to be on this earth.

Severely punishing an owner does not give back to the child his face.

A PB tearing into another living thing is 100% the PB's fault. Owning one of the unpredictable bred-to-kill beasts is 100% the owner's fault.

Because animals have no responsibilities, they have no rights. I'm sorry if you love your cute little PB; just about as sorry as I am for somebody who owns a chimpanzee.

Truth is there are tons of breeds out there none of which would improve the species more than the elimination of PB's.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Baz

Jeff...you obviously have not read any of my posts. I have said repeatedly that humans should be held accountable. Period.

I don't know any other way to put it.
That covers all stupid chit they do in regards to pit bull issues or with any other breed. Everything!

Certain people should not be allowed to own a dog...let alone breed them. Plenty of worthy rescues in shelters!

Cheers, my friend.

I have read all of your posts, Baz. Several times. I must be missing something (it wouldn't be the first time).

Your "humans should be held accountable" stance does not address the unwitting family lulled into a false sense of security by the "pit bulls are just misunderstood and mistreated" mantra. Who is held accountable when a normal, loving family falls into the trap of having unwittingly bought a vicious animal that is no more than a ticking time bomb? The family? Are they accountable? Did they just get what they deserved, or what? You've lost me.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

There is no reason for PB's to be on this earth.

Severely punishing an owner does not give back to the child his face.

A PB tearing into another living thing is 100% the PB's fault. Owning one of the unpredictable bred-to-kill beasts is 100% the owner's fault.

Because animals have no responsibilities, they have no rights. I'm sorry if you love your cute little PB; just about as sorry as I am for somebody who owns a chimpanzee.

Truth is there are tons of breeds out there none of which would improve the species more than the elimination of PB's.

There are those who say the same thing about automatic weapons.

I'm not saying it.

Others are.

To me it's not apples to apples.

It's not the gun's fault it can kill so many people in such a short time.

People who will never get their lives back, regardless of the punishment.

Maybe more education and stronger laws will help in both cases....none of which is happening tough because politicians value their votes.....

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I have read all of your posts, Baz. Several times. I must be missing something (it wouldn't be the first time).

Your "humans should be held accountable" stance does not address the unwitting family lulled into a false sense of security by the "pit bulls are just misunderstood and mistreated" mantra. Who is held accountable when a normal, loving family falls into the trap of having unwittingly bought a vicious animal that is no more than a ticking time bomb? The family? Are they accountable? Did they just get what they deserved, or what? You've lost me.

Hey Jeff...I'm interested in what you had in mind.

Something similar to illegal aliens? No more get in....then deal with the ones we have here already?

You're in charge......go for it.....

=========

Edit: to answer your question.....

Who is held accountable when a normal, loving family falls into the trap of having unwittingly bought a vicious animal that is no more than a ticking time bomb? The family? Are they accountable? Did they just get what they deserved, or what?

Really and truly if we are serious about reducing injury and death....I think we need to start looking at dog (or pet in general) ownership similarly as we look at owning a car or firearm. Get training and education (start at grade school level?) - stiff fines/imprisonment for violations - regulate who can sell and who can buy - and after all that....if the situation you offer above happens...guess it would amount to the same thing when a family buys a firearm (or sports car) and one day they are harmed because of that decision.....you can only do so much to help folks...at some point there has to be some personal accountability.

[Crowbob]

No, Baz.

Your analogy is wrong.

There should be fewer and fewer down to zero of a specific gun that is always cocked, cannot be unloaded and has been proven to spontaneously and unpredictably fire a round all by itself for no discernible reason and anyone owning and/or possessing one when it does is culpable.

The gun has no rights, including the right to exist.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

No, Baz.

Your analogy is wrong.

There should be fewer and fewer down to zero of a specific gun that is always cocked, cannot be unloaded and has been proven to spontaneously and unpredictably fire a round all by itself for no discernible reason and anyone owning and/or possessing one when it does is culpable.

The gun has no rights, including the right to exist.

Not my analogy, Bob.

Not apples to apples.

But out of curiosity....what is our total % of Pit Bull ownership in this country and what is the % of injures/deaths.

Then let's do the same calculation with hand guns.

I'm just curious what the stats are....

[Tobra]

Robert, with all due respect, your analogy is FAR more specious than anything else in the thread.

Since we are going to have a list of dog breeds that are to be destroyed, starting with any that has any "pit bull" blood flowing through their veins, what others are to be eliminated?

I will start.


Chow Chow, any breed related to the German Shepherd/Belgian Malinois, Rottweiler, Doberman and Mastiff. Only dog that ever bit me was a standard Poodle, so they need to go too. What else needs to be on the list.

Jeff, you have not really answered the only question Baz has asked, and he responded to all yours. Okay, your thread, and you are king of the world who seems to know more about this than the rest of us. Give us the answer that you so obviously know to this conundrum.

Oh, and a human is the most violent, unpredictable critter that has ever strode the Earth, we need to get to that too, eventually.

[Crowbob]

One stat that I can say is 100% true is that I am totally prejudiced against all PB's.

Call me a Pit Bullist.

Dogs sense fear in others and it ups their perception of their place in the hierarchy. I see a PB and I am automatically sending a message to that dog that I am scared ****less of it, that I hate it and want it dead. Were I a PB I'd attack myself.

I'm looking at some guy walking a PB down the street and see the leash and collar are 3/16" chain I'm not thinking I want to go give that cute little pup a hug.

[javadog]

Some of you guys shouldn't own any dogs, let alone a pit bull.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

One stat that I can say is 100% true is that I am totally prejudiced against all PB's.

Call me a Pit Bullist.

Dogs sense fear in others and it ups their perception of their place in the hierarchy. I see a PB and I am automatically sending a message to that dog that I am scared ****less of it, that I hate it and want it dead. Were I a PB I'd attack myself.

I'm looking at some guy walking a PB down the street and see the leash and collar are 3/16" chain I'm not thinking I want to go give that cute little pup a hug.

I feel the same way about many humans, Bob! Like Rika said....there ARE 2-legged Pit Bulls....

[Baz]

Originally Posted by javadog

Some of you guys shouldn't own any dogs, let alone a pit bull.

We have a winner....ding ding ding. Except this applies to many humans....present company excluded, of course.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Baz

Hey Jeff...I'm interested in what you had in mind.

Something similar to illegal aliens? No more get in....then deal with the ones we have here already?

You're in charge......go for it.....

=========

Edit: to answer your question.....



Really and truly if we are serious about reducing injury and death....I think we need to start looking at dog (or pet in general) ownership similarly as we look at owning a car or firearm. Get training and education (start at grade school level?) - stiff fines/imprisonment for violations - regulate who can sell and who can buy - and after all that....if the situation you offer above happens...guess it would amount to the same thing when a family buys a firearm (or sports car) and one day they are harmed because of that decision.....you can only do so much to help folks...at some point there has to be some personal accountability.

I think you are definitely on the right track, Baz. Education, training, and personal accountability. A large part of that must be the willingness of the entire canine community, from breeders to owners to vets to advocates, presenting a realistic picture of each and every breed. Especially with these kinds of breeds. Too many families get duped by the "nurture not nature" message being promoted by pit bull advocates and apologists.

So, yeah - special licenses for breeders of these animals. Licenses to own these animals. Mandatory inspections of facilities as a prerequisite for either. Temperament screenings wherein individuals shown to be prone to wanton acts of aggression are put down (dogs, but maybe owners as well ). Some sort of controls on these aggressive breeds.

I'm not sure I can buy into the guns and sports cars parallel. These are inanimate objects with no will of their own. They do not act independently of their owners. No car will ever start itself and go on a rampage (unless it's Christine...). No gun will ever load itself on go on a rampage. A living, breathing, thinking animal will. As such, I think it is prudent to enact strict controls on their ownership.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by javadog

Some of you guys shouldn't own any dogs, let alone a pit bull.

I'll put my natural ability and experience with critters up there with anyone....it's a "gift" . I "think" that if I had acquired their PB puppy at 7 weeks old, then it might have had a different outcome....but I just can't say for sure. I do know this....my friends did nothing wrong....except bring a puppy into their pack of three....just average dog lovers...

I just know what they and I have experienced first hand. Have you? Point is....a casual dog lover/owner and a PB (or any dog showing hyper aggressive traits with the ferocity I've experienced first hand) is dangerous imo. My friends wanted me to take an offspring....I would not....after much soul searching, I simply would not risk small kids and other pets I sm around...couldn't .

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by KC911

I'll put my natural ability and experience with critters up there with anyone....it's a "gift" . I "think" that if I had acquired their PB puppy at 7 weeks old, then it might have had a different outcome....but I just can't say for sure. I do know this....my friends did nothing wrong....except bring a puppy into their pack of three....just average dog lovers...

I just know what they and I have experienced first hand. Have you? Point is....a casual dog lover/owner and a PB (or any dog showing hyper aggressive traits with the ferocity I've experienced first hand) is dangerous imo. My friends wanted me to take an offspring....I would not....after much soul searching, I simply would not risk small kids and other pets I sm around...couldn't .

this illustrates why the breed should be gone.

you have a guy who says 'I'm smart enough, but others may not be. trust ME.'

I'm not interesting in risking a childs safety on some guys self assessment.

[javadog]

Nobody has a natural ability with dogs unless they were raised by dogs. That doesn't describe anyone I know as we were all raised by humans. When we think like humans and try and incorporate dogs into our world we make mistake after mistake. We have to learn to think as a dog does and structure their environment in a way that makes sense to them.

That's clearly too much work for most people, so they should probably own cats. It's like anything else, whether it's learning how to raise a kid, or shoot a gun, or drive a car. It requires us to make an investment into increasing our understanding of the world and dog ownership generally doesn't get that respect.

Those of you that want to learn more about dogs, and more about yourself, I suggest that you pick up a book or two. Start with one called "Inside of a Dog," by Horowitz. It's sufficiently detailed yet still accessible, so it should be a very instructive read for just about anybody participating in this thread.

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by Baz

Not sure why you are saying all that to me, Jim. I agree....humans need to do more to help reduce Pit Bull attacks, etc.

I mean, it's not like a dog can read this forum (or a book, etc.) and take action. It's the responsibility of humans.

100% agree it is up to humans.

In Dade county Humans passed laws that outright ban ownership of the breed in the county. That in my opinion is a good start.

Humans at home Insurance companies will deny coverage if you tell them you have a pit in your house.

Humans that manage apartment complexes have a no pit bull policy.

Humans at the county we live in have a no pit bull rule at dog parks.

Humans that own dog day cares have a no pitbull policy.

Another thing humans can do, not own them, they are not cool, they are dangerous animals.

You mentioned assault weapons in a post above, in my opinion owning a Pit is akin to loading a AR-15 the tossing it on your couch then hoping nothing goes wrong with a house full of kids.

My weapons are all locked in a safe.

I would never consider owning a dog that if it has a bad day someone can end up dead.

Here is a story of another human that sucks, he owns a pitbull that alone makes him suck, what makes him suck more is his pitbull was running loose at 6:00 this morning.

All I could think of was how defenseless I was against this thing if it decided to go for our dog and to be honest it was sketchy as hell. It kept charging our dog.

Our dog loves all dogs and everyone, her head was down, ears back and tail between her legs through the entire encounter, I never seen her submit like that before.

All that said, just ordered a cattle prod and tazer off of amazon. I guess its time to get off my ass and visit the sheriff and get my CCW application in too. I am still pretty pissed that a pit was loose in my neighborhood this morning. We were going to trap it in our side yard after it followed us all the way to our house so we could have animal control come get it, it left before we could entice it in that yard.

It did chase my neighbor across the street back into her house along with her Lab puppy before it left.