Those in the field, would you advise youngsters to avoid aviation as a career choice?

[lendaddy]

...and I don't mean just in reference to becoming a pilot but also the various areas of engineering, management, support services, etc...

Over the years I've gotten the impression from the board (be it intended or not) that the industry has "had its day" in America. Have I read too much into the posts or is that a fair assessment? Would you tend to nudge a young teen in another direction if asked for guidance?

For the sake of discussion assume the youngster has no preexisting "love" of flying or aviation, I'm looking for a raw evaluation of the fields health and availability of opportunity. I would always advise someone to follow their passion, let's take that out of it.

Thanks all!

[Moses]

I think aircraft mechanics make about $80K and I can't imagine those jobs going away.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Moses

I think aircraft mechanics make about $80K and I can't imagine those jobs going away.

True, but I think 80K a year is achievable in most any industry with some time in and even moderate ambition. I'm in manufacturing (non-union) and our floor level supervisors are bumping off that number (no degree required). I could certainly have some tunnel vision I suppose but I don't see 80k as much of a hook. I don't mean to imply it's not good money, only that it's not a uniquely large number.

Edit: gave this some more thought and the "not going away" part of your statement isn't without merit. These careers would be significantly more stable than those in my (and likely most) industry(s).

[legion]

I'm sure I will get corrected with better numbers, but it's my understanding that pilots for small "puddle jumper" airlines make peanuts--something like $20k-$30k a year. Pilots working for a major, flying a big aircraft on a major route can make good money (over $100k), but also often negotiate lower wages when airlines are struggling.

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

For the sake of discussion assume the youngster has no preexisting "love" of flying or aviation, .....

Earning a pilot's license takes a large commitment of time, money, and determination. Very few who don't fall in love with aviation will follow through to the end. Only about 20% of student starts stick with it long enough to get the license.

If one is not wildly in love with the desire to fly (to the point of annoying everyone around) they will most likely spend lots of money and walk away with nothing to show for it.

That being said, for me there is nothing as challenging, yet relaxing, as flying.
I'm wildly in love with the desire to fly.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I am an aerospace engineer and manager in the aerospace industry. There's a big difference between being a pilot and engineer so that might help to better define. There is a severe pilot shortage that is only projected to get worse, both domestic and international. It's true that the first few years of flying mean you make peanuts, but once you get a worthwhile gig on a major airline the money is very good as is the job security. Working otherwise in the industry is a boom or bust in many ways, and obviously engineering isn't for everyone. Aerospace tends to be in centralized clusters in terms of industry, so that's worthy of consideration unless they want to be tied to one company forever. Aerospace is very niche, it's difficult to cross over to other industries depending on your degree or specialization. With that said the industry can be incredibly rewarding, it's hard to beat seeing your hard work take flight for the first time.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by legion

I'm sure I will get corrected with better numbers, but it's my understanding that pilots for small "puddle jumper" airlines make peanuts--something like $20k-$30k a year. Pilots working for a major, flying a big aircraft on a major route can make good money (over $100k), but also often negotiate lower wages when airlines are struggling.

This is true, my brother is second seat for Skywest, there a United contract carrier. Anyway he flies "Embraer" (I think, it's a small plane whatever it is). Your numbers are right on.

[LakeCleElum]

Seems like Air Traffic Controllers do pretty good considering and much lessor expense for their education?......Aren't there a few of them here on Pelican? Would like to hear if that is true?

[Jeff Higgins]

Polish up your crystal ball and try to predict where it will go...

As a decidedly "old dog" in the aviation world, I can say I make significantly more than the numbers brandied about on this thread. That said, I'm one of the last of a dying breed who got in while the getting was good. I cannot believe what they pay junior engineers in my industry today. The difference is so great that they are actually paying guys like me to leave so our positions can be filled by markedly lesser paid grads. Lots of downward pressure on wages from India and other places. At least until the industry starts to realize that "you get what you pay for", and that quality engineers are not grown on trees. Or trained in India...

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

Seems like Air Traffic Controllers do pretty good considering and much lessor expense for their education?......Aren't there a few of them here on Pelican? Would like to hear if that is true?

But it's Not easy and time consuming to get in. I applied to the posting from the FAA back in August. First time the job was open to public applications in 2 years. You take a personality test then that cuts out many applicants. I was lucky enough to get selected to take the aptitude test, which I just took last weekend, and should know whether or not I move to the next step in 90 days or so. If I even make it through all the steps in the process it would be late next year before I can start the 16 week training and then get assigned wherever the FAA decides(still not sure I'm up for that).


Yes the money is good, but it takes a while to get there, and they are looking for a very specific set of people with that they are looking for. I've always scored well on tests, and parts of the test felt like a complete mind f**k to me.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by legion

I'm sure I will get corrected with better numbers, but it's my understanding that pilots for small "puddle jumper" airlines make peanuts--something like $20k-$30k a year. Pilots working for a major, flying a big aircraft on a major route can make good money (over $100k), but also often negotiate lower wages when airlines are struggling.

Dead-nuts on.

This is one of several reasons why I left commercial aviation as a career about 12 years ago and went back to architectural practice. Don't get me wrong - flying is the best damn job in the world while the wheels are in the wells. The problem is everything else about it sucks. The industry is dominated by sleazebag "carrot danglers" all trying to use you by appealing to your obsession with the allure of that "left-seat-in-a-777-someday" job that their schyte $30k-a-year-and-no-benefits job will supposedly prepare you for ("...think of all the valuable experience you're getting...". Hah! If I had a dollar for every time I heard that one...)

I was luckier than most in that I built most of my initial hours flight instructing with a pretty good quality outfit in southern CA that treated us well, gave us a lot of flexibility over our own schedules and ways of doing things and paid fairly decently for what it was. I then got picked up by a cargo rat outfit running freight all over the western US for a few years (this was just after 9/11 so I was lucky to get anything and gladly took it). At times I felt jealous of the other guys I'd taught with who were logging "jet time" as FOs with ConEx, SkyWest, American Eagle, etc. (the ones who hadn't been furloughed anyway, and most of them had been...) As I learned more about it though I learned that most of them were actually jealous of me - yes I flew clapped-out old piston twins and turboprops with steam gauges rather than shiny jets with fancy-schmancy glass cockpits but I actually got to FLY my airplanes - as in, hand-fly from takeoff to touchdown, in full IMC. Real man's flying - not the prissy "V1, V2, rotate, gear up, flaps up, autopilot and yaw dampener on and shut up" stuff that the regional FOs had to do day after day between having to listen to their passengers piss and moan about how their seat was too small or whatever else...

Yes my schedules sucked. It's no fun being awakened every day at 3:30 am by an alarm clock to have to call some dispatcher and convince them you're actually awake, alive and planning to be out on the ramp for duty in an hour. Yes it sucks to sit around in some forgotten corner of the world all day waiting for the trucks to show up and load boxes onto the plane to head home that afternoon so you can maybe get four or five hours sleep that night before having to do it again tomorrow... The dirty little secret and truth is that the regional guys didn't really have it much better and at least I got to be home every night while they often were gone for days at a time, living 3 or 4 guys to some craphole apartment down the road from their domicile airport and eating Ramen noodles 3 meals a day to stretch their $25k a year salaries.

It was fun while I did it though and I really do miss the flying part but truthfully it's a horrible, horrible industry. If you get lucky maybe you'll get one of those few "corner office" gigs with a major airline at some point but those are getting rarer and rarer as even major airlines continue to focus solely on price point and are hyper-competitive, cutting overhead (salaries) as often and as much as possible. Also, more regulation and automation is systematically sucking the soul out of it... The pilots on those jets don't really fly them anymore - some low-bid software developer out of India does more often than not now. The pilots are there for public perception, emergency situations and (mostly) to provide a scapegoat for the company to blame if something goes sideways. And you'll be competing against 2,000 other guys - most with military backgrounds - for that same slot. Still want to chance it and bet your career going after that slot? Are you willing to suffer eating Ramen for 10 or 15 years to (maybe but not likely) get there?

This is only the tip of the iceberg and I could talk your ear off for hours with stories for and against pursuing it, but please don't be deluded by tales of $200k-a-year jobs, 10-day-a-month duty schedules, the ability to galavant across the globe at will, etc. Those days are long, long gone. We no longer live in the golden age of aviation when airplane captains were respected and revered. Now you're more or less a glorified Grayhound bus driver, maybe with slightly better pay and benefits if you're left seat.

Wanna make a small fortune in aviation? Start with a large one.

[fred cook]

My son works for a major aircraft manufacturer in their engineering department. He makes good money (well over $100k) and seems to enjoy the work. So, I would not say that aviation is a field to avoid.

[atcjorg]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

But it's Not easy and time consuming to get in. I applied to the posting from the FAA back in August. First time the job was open to public applications in 2 years. You take a personality test then that cuts out many applicants. I was lucky enough to get selected to take the aptitude test, which I just took last weekend, and should know whether or not I move to the next step in 90 days or so. If I even make it through all the steps in the process it would be late next year before I can start the 16 week training and then get assigned wherever the FAA decides(still not sure I'm up for that).


Yes the money is good, but it takes a while to get there, and they are looking for a very specific set of people with that they are looking for. I've always scored well on tests, and parts of the test felt like a complete mind f**k to me.

retired 3.5 yrs ago after 36yrs 5 mos of being an air traffic controller last assignment socal tracon from 1994 to 3 yrs ago, you get paid based on the density and complexity of the traffic(the facilities are classified into levels) the level 5's (busiest) you can make a good living in. However if your in the job for the money they probably won't last too long, the hours are brutal (atc is 24/7/365) tough on family life, I would really recommend it for someone that's bright, tough, and can think on the fly("so to speak)

[JavaBrewer]

How long before pilots get replaced, or put on the bench, in favor of computers? Drones have come a long way in the last few years. Just starting out I would worry about the next 10-20 years.

[rattlsnak]

The numbers posted above are no longer true. Starting pay at most regionals is over $40k now and you'll be over $150.00 by year 5 for FOs and 10 year CPTs are well over $250k at the majors. That's fact.. It's union contracts and posted in many places to the public. Yes, you will endure some pretty bad quality of life schedules at first, but now is a great time to get in as a pilot. There are way too many variables to type in here but I'll be glad to talk to you about if you like. I can give you lots of good advice and direction.

[BE911SC]

Speaking as a 19,000-hour airline pilot:

There really isn't a pilot shortage. There is a shortage of highly qualified super-cheap pilots. Once the industry can get around the pilot unions they'll hire Chinese--or whomever will dramatically undercut U.S. wages--and the profession, as we know it, will become just another victim of cost-cutters.

As soon as you can get people to board a plane that has no pilots (drone, remotely controlled) then the profession will be in danger of extinction. The pilot unions (leadership) will tacitly allow this and then profess to be shocked when it comes to pass.

Hand a professional pilot a knife and he will thrust it into his own stomach, or the other pilot's stomach, and blame the company.

We have seen the enemy and he is us. (Applies to just about every work group, not just airline employees.)

Airline pilots tend to vote conservative while demanding their union pay and benefits. They say things like, "Ronald Reagan was right-on in firing those PATCO controllers" and then become enraged when the airline, with help from the pilot union, maneuvers them into a pay cut.

Airline pilots (often captains) also tell you that a pay raise is imminent when, in fact, a dramatic pay cut is what actually happens. They then deny saying anything about a raise and tell you that they knew the pay cut was coming.

Just some personal observations on 20 years of airline flying in both seats.

Lastly, the '84 Carrera Cabriolet in my signature came from an inheritance, not out of my airline paycheck.

[flipper35]

There are more piloting careers than the airlines or flying boxcars around as well.

[aschen]

when I dun grageeated from engineering school the conventional wisdom, for those aspiring to work into aerospace, was to get a more general ME degree and focus on aerospace related disciplines (CFD, turbomachinery etc). That will ensure you have a bit more flexibility for employers.

that was in ye old times (~2000) so I am not sure if it still applies. I had a job offer from Cessna/citation that was only 60% of the market median rate at the time.

[cashflyer]

Not counting military time, I hit 20 years in aviation as of last month.

And for 20 years, I have seen the BS line about "shortages" thrown around in trade publications. Oh no, the WWI guys are retiring. Oh no, the baby boomers are retiring. Whatever. People are always retiring, and there are always people to fill the jobs. There is no shortage, other than as pointed out, a shortage of people willing to work cheap.

Pilot licenses are not cheap.
A&P licenses are.

Pay? Well, I'm not a good data point. I could be making more somewhere else, but I am in a comfortable position and the money is OK. Lots of people in aviation make more than I do. My neighbor is the chief QA at a facility that does a lot of government work. He makes 15% more than me, and has better bennys.

Name brand employers are usually better to work for than indys and local/regional. Unions are prevalent in aviation and have their pros and cons.

Lots of good info in this thread from PoP, BE, and "old man" higgins.


Knowing what I know today, would I do it all over again?
Hard to say. I'm kind of eat up with aviation, so probably so. Though, hopefully, I would do things a little differently. And stay single.

[sammyg2]

Those in the field...