more gun talk. the sound of a shotgun "racking".

[masraum]

Originally Posted by djmcmath

As to the shotgun myth: I had a cop buddy who one time, anecdotally, was able to successfully intimidate a couple of hoodlums into ceasing and desisting with an extremely confident approach that included racking the shotgun. Other than that, I think it's mostly just a myth. In my case, I keep the spoon loaded and chambered, so the only things a bad guy would hear are the safe popping open and the safety coming off.

I've watched a bunch of of videos online of various shootings. In some cases, the bad guy is happy to get into a shootout. In some cases, the bad guy can't get out of the way of the bullets fast enough. I have no doubt that there are a great many burglars that don't want to get shot and would run the other way if a defender had a visible gun. I also have no doubt that your best bet is to plan to stop the threat if you get into that situation, because you have no way of knowing which kind of bad guy you're dealing with.

[legion]

Originally Posted by djmcmath

That said, clearing a house is, for most of us, a pretty foolish proposition. As I understand it from chats with professionals, clearing a building is a team job, not something a lone guy without serious training should be doing on his own in the middle of the night.

I've done it a few times. Mostly its so that I can verify that the house is empty and go back to sleep. Otherwise I would be up all night. I'm not really expecting to find anyone. If I knew someone was in the house, I'd gather everyone in my bedroom and shelter in place.

For example, a few weeks ago I heard a huge crash somewhere downstairs. I cleared the house. I later found out that my wood pile had fallen against the house as the logs had been gently moved by a recent series of freeze/thaw cycles.

[craigster59]

On a related note, I was talking with an armor on a show who's friend owned a gun shop. His carry piece in store was a pink 9mm. He was a big biker guy and he felt if he ever had to draw in a situation, he might get a half second drop on the perp due to the fact the perp would focus on "Why in the Hell is this big dude carrying a pink gun".

Don't know if it's true in an actual situation but thought it was funny.

[legion]

Originally Posted by craigster59

On a related note, I was talking with an armor on a show who's friend owned a gun shop. His carry piece in store was a pink 9mm. He was a big biker guy and he felt if he ever had to draw in a situation, he might get a half second drop on the perp due to the fact the perp would focus on "Why in the Hell is this big dude carrying a pink gun".

Don't know if it's true in an actual situation but thought it was funny.

I'd certainly be confused by and ponder it.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by legion

I think there are two different use cases here:

1) House Clearing

IMO, a light mounted on a handspoon is best for this job. Small, maneuverable, and if you can see the bad guy, you very nearly have sights on him. Here you have the ability to fire multiple shots rapidly. Sure, the sound of racking a shotgun will cause some criminals to flee, but not all. Some won't recognize what is going on. Some might be high. Some won't care.

2) Shelter in place

In this case, you know someone is in your house and you think they are coming for you or your family. Someone is on the phone with the police. Having a shotgun pointed at the door in case they breach is not a bad defensive posture. I'd want to be something like 45º off from the door in case they decide to fire through it.

I totally agree with this, in general most police will recommend the shelter in place scenario.
Ultimately it is your personal choice if you chose to go after the bad guy or wait it out.
I live in Los Angeles and my spoons are pretty only SHTF defense.
If really bad things start going down I will have time chamber rounds.
If I worked in liquor store yes, of course I would have a loaded spoon on my hip.
The only time I have pulled a spoon is when I heard strange noises at the neighbors house and I knew they were on vacation so I tucked the 9 in my belt and grabbed a flashlight (I figures if the popo rolled up and I was holding a shotgun that would not go well).

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Actually, the penetration tests on 00 buck show it penetrates drywall better than .223/5.56

I do not disagree with that. However drywall is not the only consideration. For instance, how far would that 5.56 go with lethal force through a window? How about a 00 pellet?

An AR may well be a better option for you in every scenario. A shotgun has shortcomings. But I know people for whom the shotgun would be a better option than an AR, or any handgun.

[djmcmath]

Originally Posted by legion

I've done it a few times. Mostly its so that I can verify that the house is empty and go back to sleep. Otherwise I would be up all night. I'm not really expecting to find anyone. If I knew someone was in the house, I'd gather everyone in my bedroom and shelter in place.

For example, a few weeks ago I heard a huge crash somewhere downstairs. I cleared the house. I later found out that my wood pile had fallen against the house as the logs had been gently moved by a recent series of freeze/thaw cycles.

Fair point: house clearing happens if you think something fishy is afoot, but are pretty sure there's nobody actually in the house.

I once cleared my house after the UPS guy showed up on my front porch at 11pm. My bedroom was right next to the porch, so I hear "stomp stomp stomp" up the stairs, then "THUMP!" at the front door. That's an adrenaline hit, for sure, haha.

[wdfifteen]

The terror of hearing a shotgun rack is the result of too much exposure to hyperbole in movies. Just last night I watched a TV show (Longmire season 2 episode 3 I think). Branch shot a rabbit with what was obviously a 22 rifle. It sounded like a cannon going off. I've fired lots of 22s. The roar doesn't exactly echo through the canyons.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Taz's Master

I do not disagree with that. However drywall is not the only consideration. For instance, how far would that 5.56 go with lethal force through a window? How about a 00 pellet?

An AR may well be a better option for you in every scenario. A shotgun has shortcomings. But I know people for whom the shotgun would be a better option than an AR, or any handgun.

The issue is that it is easier to teach "incompetent" people how to use a shotgun or a carbine than to teach them to use a pistol properly. This was the reason for developing the M1-Carbine in WW2. More firepower, less training for people not needing a main battle rifle. Much better than a Colt .45...

Of course, my "goto" is a .45....

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by red-beard

The issue is that it is easier to teach "incompetent" people how to use a shotgun or a carbine than to teach them to use a pistol properly. This was the reason for developing the M1-Carbine in WW2. More firepower, less training for people not needing a main battle rifle. Much better than a Colt .45...

Of course, my "goto" is a .45....

There an awful lot of people who would like to be able to defend themselves, but are not willing or able to devote the time and money to become proficient with a handgun. (For that matter, there an awful lot of people who hunt, and aren't willing to work to become proficient with a rifle, but this is a different topic.) For them a shotgun can be an effective option. But probably not because of the noise the slide makes.

[red-beard]

There is a lot more to "defending yourself" than owning a firearm. You have to have a self-defense mindset. You have to think ahead and understand and accept, that when the time comes, it is you or them, and the correct answer is "YOU".

My wife says she will not be able to shoot someone. She is not allowed to carry a firearm. I think this would be different if she had kids, and they were threatened.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by djmcmath

Legion, I'd generally agree with your logic, though I might disagree on the tools: a short AR-15 would probably be my preferred tool for house clearing. In the drills I've practiced with, I find I can acquire targets faster and more precisely with a proper rifle than I can with a hand-spoon. YMMV.

+1.

A pistol is great. It gives you something to shoot back with until you can get to your rifle.

Originally Posted by djmcmath

Maybe this is cavalier, but if I can't stop a bad guy with 15 rounds of 45 JHP from 3 yards kneeling, even in a high stress situation, I probably don't deserve to live long enough to breed anyway.

Hmmm... Is it more "Darwinian" to miss 15 times, or to not have an extra loaded mag nearby?

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Can you really think of ANY likely situation where in your own home you would need more than a couple or three rounds?

I'd say pretty much any situation where you are confronted with an armed intruder. If you have a home-defense gun, you are preparing yourself for a worst-case scenario.
Is it likely that you will ever need to use it? No. But in the unlikely event that you do, I wouldn't want to rely on probabilities/likelihoods from that point forward.

With 3 rounds, if you shoot first and likely miss, you now have only 2 left to get an incapacitating hit on target, which will likely be much harder to achieve than your first attempt.
At which point, said armed intruder is likely going to be firing back, and possibly advancing on your position quickly. If he has something like a typical/modern 9mm, he has 15-18 chances to get lucky. You now have 2.

IMO, additional ammo follows the same logic as having a gun in the first place: Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. YMMV...

[rusnak]

I'm going to guess that most confrontations involving guns dont escalate to a shooting of a person. And if you watch videos of people shooting or getting shot, it looks like they just empty the clip. And if you've ever had a gun pointed in your face, it is literally the only thing that you're seeing. I can't imagine the fear of having a shotgun pointed at me and hearing either a round being chambered, or worse "click".

[arbita1]

I have family members in law enforcement. One tells me that when he pulls up on guys with a shot gun they usually surrender more quickly than with the assault rifle. Having said that I think my 9mm would be my go to for a home invasion. Although maybe unless I had the time to grab the mossberg 500. Who knows how you would really react in that situation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Por_sha911]

A rifle or shotgun is harder to maneuver inside a home. A pistol has a lot more mobility to get around furniture, lamps, door jams...

[Don Ro]

~~~~~~~~~
Mossberg Mod.500 12 gauge Pump Persuader, 18" barrel, loaded, one in chamber, safety off, under a towel on the floor next to my bed. Easy to carry & stroll through the house.

One must practice with this puppy, however, the barrel jumps right much.
Keep in mind...depending on what an intruder is under the influence of, a round or two may not stop him...a big hole that bleeds profusely may be a quicker stop.
.
Edit: Childless bachelor.

[KFC911]

Many years ago when we were quite rowdy, a few of us were meeting at a couple of friends' apt mid-day to go somewhere...and one buddy hadn't crawled out of bed yet....bedroom door closed. "Let's get Kenny up (dog pile) ..."

The sound of his shotgun racking (unloaded though) ended that nonsense ....unmistakable "reality check" sound imo

Whether my .45 semi, or .357 lever is available for easy access....no round in chamber for me...no one is gonna breach my house without me having ample warning, and I don't like the idea of one chambered in them. My carry....Ruger LC9S won't fire if clip is removed...round stays chambered in it...

[Brando]

I think the "sound of the shotgun racking" is a nice wives' tale. It sounds like a great parable to tell your friends at the range. I don't see it as practical, though. And as Don Ro says: if they're under the influence who knows.

For home protection I've got the Ruger SR-9 and Hi-Point 9mm. In the Ruger I have some fancy all-copper hollow point rounds. They're supposed to stop in flesh and drywall. The last thing I would want to do is have a round go through a wall into my neighbor's room. Buckshot or 5.56/.223 would cause too much damage IMHO.

Do some searches on YouTube for ballistics tests. Some really interesting stuff there.

[scottmandue]

Shotgun shmotgun... I keep my living-room stocked with rattlesnakes. No matter how stoned the bad guy is everyone recognizes that sound!