Le Tour 2017

[Ngrich99]

Looks like hockey on bicycles.. check him into the boards and carry on.

[look 171]

Elbows are part of sprinter's game. Sagan's always been a bit of a bully and has gotten away with it for a long time. I have never liked Sagan after he pinched one of the podium girl's ass on stage and some of you know that. I have to take a look at the video to your link, John.

DQ for aggressive at sprints, part of the old me will say, let it go its part of sprinting and cycling. I have forced, I should say, ride (forced is too harsh) someone into the barriers during the final 200 meters coming off a turn to the finish in my aggressive youth and actually won the race, but the refs caught it and DQ me. I deserved that one. I did it again the same year near the end of the season and was left alone because I got something like 9th or 10 th place, so it went unnoticed or maybe they noticed but just didn't care. No accidents on both account, the guy backed off. The same thing Cav did, but this was coming off a left hand turn and I just keep sprinting off the saddle inching toward the cones with the rider's wheel just overlapping my rear wheel. neither he back off or our wheels will tough and he will fall.

[look 171]

Just saw the overhead vid. It looks like Cav was trying to lean on Sagan right under the second tree, to get him to move hoping to shoot the gap but Sagan was having none of it and use his elbow to keep the gap close so Cav couldn't get through. I really think Cav bounced off Sagan (I am sure Sagan has something to do with him going right into the barrier too) into the barrier.

[Tobra]

That was more on the guy that got hurt than the guy with the elbows. WTF was he thinking trying to squeeze through there?

[matthewb0051]

Cav initiated the contact by leaning into PS. They ALL do this, sprinters that is. The still frames indicate that the elbow comes out after Cav is on his way down.

Tragic but not a DQ.

[arcsine]

The DSQ for Sagan makes no sense to me. What both Sagan and Cavendish did is standard fair in bunched sprints and simply unfortunate Cavendish was injured. Last year Cavendish pretty much took out a guy during a sprint and nothing was said about it.

[berettafan]

clear as mud! reading comments here and on cycling forums where the audience is presumably familiar with rules and etiquette of racing one ends up unsure.

a shame as Sagan is fun to watch.

[Baz]

Why the jury is wrong on Sagan’s DSQ

The initial contact is shown from the front. Sagan is in front of Cavendish, and Cavendish ends up with his shoulder in Sagan’s side and his head on Sagan’s shoulder. Sagan is moving to the right as the riders in front of him do the same, and Cavendish tries to sneak by between the barriers. Their bikes come together, and Cavendish leans right and begins to unclip his right foot from his pedal, indicating an imminent crash. All this before Sagan’s elbow is out.





Sagan’s elbow moves out as Cavendish falls. From the front video, it’s unclear whether the elbow actually touches Cavendish.

Regardless of whether the Sagan’s elbow made contact, it moved quickly. The disqualification was based on this perceived aggression, a “very serious maneuver,” according to the jury’s Philippe Mariën. The question, then, is whether this movement was actually aggressive — intended to push Cavendish — or merely reactive.

How could it be reactive? If a rider is pushed on their right side, the right elbow or arm (or head or foot) will come out to the right. It’s Isaac Newton’s third law of not falling off your bike. The key piece of evidence here is that Sagan’s bike moves left. He clearly slightly off balance. The elbow is just as likely to be a reaction to that as it is an aggressive swipe.



The primary question is not whether Sagan’s elbow made contact, though, but how purposeful his movements were. The mere act of closing the door on a rival, even if that caused a crash, is not the type of “serious” act that would normally lead a jury to a disqualification. A penalty, yes. There is plenty of precedent for that. And if Sagan’s elbow was thrown aggressively, as a means to push Cavendish in the barriers, then one can argue that the disqualification is warranted regardless of the movement’s efficacy. (If he took a swing at Cav mid-stage, for example, it would likely land him in hot water whether the punch landed or not.)

The problem with all of this is that the jury is assigning a motive based on actions that are not clear. There is reasonable doubt that Sagan’s action was purposeful. This is a long way from the American judicial system, but that lack of clarity should make a jury think twice about applying its most severe penalty.

[berettafan]

So it is not acceptable to close a lane out?

or it IS acceptable until the chasing rider gets to point X? And what is point x?

[matthewb0051]

Those are some great slo-mo shots. Pretty clear that Cav leaned left into PS. And pretty clear to me that he never got fully along side PS and went down due to the contact he initiated.

I really like Cav and was hoping he would win the sprint. Just hate that they are both out now.

[jyl]

Cav was already alongside Sagan, with Cav's head was about level with Sagan's hip, when Sagan moved right to close the gap between him and the barrier. To me that is not merely "blocking" a guy by closing a gap, which they can get away with, but "jamming" a guy who is already in the gap, which is really likely to cause a crash so they can't get away with it. Cav may well have leaned on Sagan in an attempt to stop Sagan from moving further rightward. Sagan threw the elbow, a fast out and in motion, looks like a deliberate elbow throw to get knock Cav away, rather than a balancing action. The jamming alone would be a punishable act, I think - forcing someone to crash into barriers has certainly resulted in penalty before. The elbow throw makes it more egregious. I think relegation, time, points penalty was a given for that action. Full DQ - that's pretty harsh, I guess it depends on what else the jury saw Sagan doing. The TV cameras film in HD or better, we only see down-rezzed clips on Youtube.

[Baz]

Looks like Cav ran into PS.

Thus....he caused the crash.

He should have been the one disqualified.

The reason he wasn't is because he went down and PS didn't.

Sucks.....

[jyl]

Baz, no-one was moving right in a way that forced Sagan to move right. Demare was well ahead of Sagan and was moving left to cut in front of Bouhanni. Bouchanni was also ahead of Sagan and sprinting in a straight line for once. There was no-one immediately to Sagan's left. The overhead makes that very clear.

I think they can get away with closing a gap that a rival is aiming to get into. Maybe that's not technically permitted but sprinters don't usually get penalized for it, unless they have a pattern of doing it like Bouhanni, who gets penalized at the drop of a hat now. But if you've let your rival get into the gap - as Cav clearly was, his body was partly overlapping Sagan's body - then I think closing the gap becomes riding the guy into the barriers. Big no-no.

[Scott Douglas]

I agree with jyl on this (not that my opinion matters, but what the heck).
The DQ came from PS riding Cav into the barriers. Shouldn't have happened since there's the whole road to their left to play in.
I'm disappointed in the commentators not having much to say about this at the start of today's coverage. They went right into covering the ride today. Last night's Prime time show didn't have much new if anything to say about it either.
Are they (NBCSN, commentators) worried about stepping on someone's toes by voicing a decenting opinion?
Or is it a case of they know who's paying the bills?

[Baz]

Originally Posted by jyl

Baz, no-one was moving right in a way that forced Sagan to move right. Demare was well ahead of Sagan and was moving left to cut in front of Bouhanni. Bouchanni was also ahead of Sagan and sprinting in a straight line for once. There was no-one immediately to Sagan's left. The overhead makes that very clear.

I think they can get away with closing a gap that a rival is aiming to get into. Maybe that's not technically permitted but sprinters don't usually get penalized for it, unless they have a pattern of doing it like Bouhanni, who gets penalized at the drop of a hat now. But if you've let your rival get into the gap - as Cav clearly was, his body was partly overlapping Sagan's body - then I think closing the gap becomes riding the guy into the barriers. Big no-no.

Cav hit PS first and this caused PS to lose his balance. If Cav doesn't run into PS....PS would have been OK.

You can't just run into other riders without consequence. Once you run into another rider....all bets are off, essentially.

There shouldn't have been any penalties but if there were Cav should have been penalized.

Originally Posted by Scott Douglas

I agree with jyl on this (not that my opinion matters, but what the heck).
The DQ came from PS riding Cav into the barriers. Shouldn't have happened since there's the whole road to their left to play in.
I'm disappointed in the commentators not having much to say about this at the start of today's coverage. They went right into covering the ride today. Last night's Prime time show didn't have much new if anything to say about it either.
Are they (NBCSN, commentators) worried about stepping on someone's toes by voicing a decenting opinion?
Or is it a case of they know who's paying the bills?

There was discussion off and on throughout the entire stage. Including at the start. Maybe we watched different viewings but I thought it was a hot topic today.

[David]

Closer inspection of the video shows Cav's brake hood hooked on Sagan's arm. So Sagan didn't throw an elbow at all, he just unhooked has arm.

Funny how the French ignore the French rider who won the stage by cutting left across the wheel of the rider to his left.

[look 171]

Closing the gap is just part of cycling. Look at many of the sprints at the end of a road race, riders will often hug the barrier to prevent other riders that may come sneaking by at speed between them and the barrier often, looking over their shoulders to make sure no one jumps on them. Blocking or whatever you guy like to call it, its just closing the gap so they don't lose the race. Its done all the time, and using elbows shoulders, and head is all part of springing. I don't know why the TDF commissioners are making a big deal of this? clearly, its not Peter Sagan's fault. His elbow should not be an issue, but his back wheel was knocked out and that was his reaction to try and stay upright. As much as I dislike Peter Sagan, he really got screw on this deal. As far as Cav's concern, he's done nothing wrong, but get himself caught knowing well you don't go and cross a wheel with the barrier on the right.

[Baz]

More to contemplate on the situation.....

[snbush67]

Totally the fault of the French rider who cuts across, Sagan ends up with the blame and cav ends up sidelined. Moving two great riders out of the way of the French. If this keeps up the French might get a podium finish or a jersey.

[Baz]

This guy's HAD IT! Lol....preach it brother!