"Blue Paint" Engines

[Jeff Higgins]

[QUOTE=sc_rufctr;9681283]Sorry Jeff but once again...

Considering how Porsche price their new cars these should be near perfect at delivery and last well beyond 200,000 miles without any major issues. (320,000 Km)[\quote]

Peter, I'm not disagreeing with any of this. I stated earlier that we should expect that when the car is well maintained and treated with respect. Porsche, however, have no control over that. We don't either when we buy a used one.

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

I have no problem with Porsche "remanufacturing" an engine but it should be as good as any other.

That term is really being misapplied with respect to the process under discussion. Again, they are simply using the good components, from motors that failed their tests or inspections in one way or another, to complete the assembly of other motors. These are still every bit as "new" as any other motor that leaves their engine build up shop, and still must pass all of the same quality checks. They are not inferior in any way.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton

I don't know the history/accuracy of the blue paint tales. But I can say that cylinder scoring is quite common. I would say more common than IMSB failures. We are rebuilding a few scored cylinder motors each year now, and only one IMSB failure (which had an aftermarket bearing- go figure).

We have another 2006 cayman S coming shortly with cylinder scoring, a 997 coming as well shortly. My wife just called a local used car dealer about a 2008 Cayman they had only to find out it has a scored cylinder. I have personally owned 2 cars with scored cylinders (2008 Cayman S and 2005 997 S).

If you are buying one of these cars and purchasing an aftermarket warranty, please make sure the coverage amount per claim will cover the engine rebuild cost. We have seen a couple cases where a client thought he was covered only to find out his warranty did not cover even half of the cost...

I would bet a new hat that this cylinder scoring issue is not a manufacturing defect of any kind, but would be more likely attributed to disrespectful, less than knowledgable owners with absolutely no "mechanical sympathy". Folks that will be hard on the gas, running right up to redline on a cold motor right after pulling out of their driveway, and that sort of thing. I wonder just what percentage of new Porsches, or new performance cars of any make, suffer this mistreatment. I bet it is a pretty significant percentage.

Maybe Porsche should introduce a cylinder head temperature / oil temperature monitoring system that interfaces with the throttle and ignition. Limit throttle opening and rpm's, gradually increasing both limits as the engine warms up. That would likely really piss off some of their customers, and they would probably try to override it. But, if they did, the warranty is voided. I bet that would clear up a lot of these "defective Porsche" issues.

[KNS]

I disagree with the "should have bought a Camry" for longevity type of statements. For the price, prestige and reputation that Porsche wants you to believe comes with your new car purchase, they should be setting the bar. They have the engineering and talent to do so.

When you leave the dealership with your new car the salesman should be saying "Of course it will take you to 200,000 miles, it's a Porsche". The biggest reason the 996 and 997 engines have failed as often as they have (although still small numbers in the grand scheme of things) is because Porsche cut corners to reduce cost.

Had all 996 and 997s been sold with (more expensive) water cooled Mezger engines we wouldn't be having these issues. Yes, coolant pipes have been failing but that was a cost cutting issue.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by motion

I'm just guessing here, but I doubt Porsche is trying to compete with Toyota in the engine longevity metric. They may very well be happy to engineer motors that are good for around 130K miles, on average. Maybe somewhere in the middle ground between Toyota and say, Ferrari.

I think you're right about the Toyota/ Ferrari spectrum. But in my opinion, 130K is not going to cut it unless they really, and I mean really drop the price of the cars to reflect the Toyota/ Ferrari price per mile metric.

I'm not a repulsive bean counter type of guy, but a Porsche completely wearing out due to designed obsolescence at 130K miles would make even me prefer to buy a Japanese ****box putt putt with a fartcan muffler than a 130K mile rattletrap from Stuttgart.

[sc_rufctr]

.... and their gearboxes should be made in GERMANY!

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

CJ. All of those things are good signs. Has anyone hooked it up to a scan tool and checked timing deviation?

It's headed down to Automobile Associates today (for those who aren't in New England, they're a Porsche specialty shop in CT that does everything from full restorations to race car builds; visiting their shop is our version of a millenial kid walking into Harry Potter world at Universal Studios for the first time). I stopped by on Friday to chat about what's going on. They have seen these issues before, but they agree that the oil analysis and the lack of debris on the oil plug is a good sign. Apparently, though, if there was metal debris in the oil, it might not register on Blackstone's oil analysis because the bits would be larger than their filter screen (>30 microns or something like that).

I believe that Auto Associates will be trying to pinpoint the sound, pulling the sump pan to check for debris, and possibly scoping the cylinders (although the sound isn't consistent with bore scoring). I'll keep everyone posted when I hear more.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

.... and their gearboxes should be made in GERMANY!

Why do you care? The same parts and processes are used around the world...

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Sorry for the dumb question, but what causes cylinder scoring? Would this be the same for example on a lawnmower or chain saw? Does this occur more often in the water cooled cars? I can't seriously remember cylinder scoring being an issue in the old days.

I'm no engineer or expert but I've read up on this issue, so I'll chime in as best I can. Those of you who know more can feel free to correct any details I get wrong.

There are a number of factors that contribute to bore/cylinder scoring: the material used to line the cylinder wall, engine internal temperature, and oil viscosity being chief among them. From what I understand, if the engine temp is high and the engine is run at a high RPM (especially before the oil is properly warmed, which can be exacerbated by the inaccuracy of the in-dash gauge), the lack of lubrication between the cylinder and the cylinder wall can create a friction that creates a "scratch" on the side of the cylinder wall that might not in and of itself be a problem, but as time goes on that defect in the cylinder wall grows. Owners of m97-engined cars start noticing that their car is consuming more oil, and they start to notice the engine running a little rougher and more smoke from their left tailpipe (or that their left tailpipe gets dirtier faster than the right).

This appears to be the cancer of the m97 engine, and is far more common than the IMS bearing failures that plagued the m96 cars. It can also be a problem because it often doesn't get diagnosed until it's too late -- these cars burn a little oil anyhow, and a lot of cars have darker left tailpipes even without a bore scoring issue.

What can one do to prevent it? Don't bring the engine into the top of the rev range before it's totally warmed up (significantly later than the gauge in the dash indicates). Build revs gradually. Install a 3rd radiator and a low-temp thermostat. Use better oil than Mobil1; there are m97 experts out there who will attest that Mobil1 is actually contributing to this issue and advise using Motul or Joe Gibbs oil.

It appears that "cylinder failure" (which is different than "cylinder scoring") is a totally different issue that's affecting more and more m96 and m97 engines as time goes on; this is what my car *might* be showing symptoms of. I won't know for sure until my local shop takes a look, though.

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Peter, while I totally agree, name one premium car company that this applies to. Mercedes used to build to a standard, and built cars that last generations. Now they are full of gizmos that might make it through your warranty period if you're lucky. If you want a car to go 200k without issues, you'd be better off buying a Camry, F150, or Miata.

Yeah, you know, it's funny: when it comes to luxury brands nowadays, it almost seems like a happy accident when a specific model ends up representing excellence, and it seems to take time to figure out which models hang in there (just as it's taken some time for the public to begin to realize that the m96 and m97 engines are fragile). For example, although BMW has had a score of drivetrain problems in the 2000s, the E39 platform is largely considered a paragon of quality; many sources attest that if you buy yourself a late 90s/early 00s 528 or 540, you're buying a car that will last well into the 200+K mile range. This used to be something that people understood inherently about a given make of car; for example, what were the two things that people knew about Volvo in the late 80s/early 90s? They are super safe, and they last forever. Sure enough, where I live (western Connecticut) you see COUNTLESS Volvo 240s, 740s, 850s, and even V70s on the road. I've never really counted, but I'd be willing to bet that you see more 200k+ mile, 20+ years old Volvos on the road here than any other make.

What will be today's luxury cars that still hang in there? Smart money is probably on Lexus and Audi right now based on initial quality and long-term test results, but as their electronics age, who knows? After all, the m97 generation of Porsche sports cars always did very well in those kinds of metrics, and look what's happening now.

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Are you a glutton for punishment?

HAH! Maybe I'm Pollyannaish, but I have a feeling that I'd have less severe headaches (although maybe more frequent, smaller headaches?) if I'd purchased a well-preserved 911SC back when I bought the Cayman in 2013 or thereabouts.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

Why do you care? The same parts and processes are used around the world...

Would you be OK with a Porsche built in a Korean, Japanese or a Chinese factory?

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I have to tell you guys (after reading this thread and the referenced Planet 9 thread with great interest) that I smell another blown-way-out-of-proportion internet panic. It has all of the ingredients - the accused company in denial it's doing anything wrong, folks "in the know" at that company saying otherwise, reputable mechanics having done a great deal of research, and on and on. Quite the nefarious scheme, replete with all of the intrigue requisite for such.

Bottom line is, the failure rate on newer Porsche engines is so small as to be insignificant (I believe they still lead the J.D. Powers surveys on owner satisfaction, and have for some time). Unless, of course, it is yours and it's out of warranty - then it is very significant to you, the owner, and looking at a $15k bill, we all want to see another answer. Misdeeds at the manufacturer are the best - they may gain you a free repair, if ever proven.

Now if it was yours from new, and you are therefore knowledgeable about its history, care, and upkeep, that's one thing - assuming it's been well treated and cared for. If it's used, even with the ability to kinda sorta evaluate its history both from maintenance records and stored in the car electronic records (over revs, etc.), face it - you still don't know how the thing was really treated. You are buying a performance car that may have been "ridden hard and put away wet" as a matter of course, or you may be buying one that was treated respectfully. You just don't know. A "premature" engine failure on such a car - and I would not categorize one failing with over 100k on the clock as such - has always been kind of the lotto we play when purchasing used toys of this sort.

As far as Porsche "remanufacturing" an engine that failed any part of its testing - why the hell not? I think any manufacturer that does not utilize the good components from their rejected assemblies - motors, trannies, brakes, suspension - whatever - would have to be insane. Would it trouble any of you to know that in large commercial aircraft manufacturing, the re-use of good components from a failed or out of spec assembly is common practice? Come on, think about this for a moment. I suppose this might speak to the less than mechanically inclined, to know that their motor was partially assembled with the good parts of a "bad" motor - they think they are getting a less than top quality unit. Hogwash. These are all zero mile components. "Remanufactured" sounds ominous, like a high mileage rebuilt motor, at least to the folks who don't understand manufacturing.

So, yeah - seems like much ado about nothing to me. Another perfect "conspiracy theory" that those staring a $15k bill in the face really want to believe. Some big evil corporation put their motor together knowing it would fail. Out of warranty, of course - their predictive modeling can nail its service life that closely to where the company knows it is safe... Really? Does anyone really believe all of that? I suppose...

But ... it was confirmed by an unsubstantiated source!

Quick question for the peanut gallery: how many ferrari engines last 137k without a rebuild?

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Would you be OK with a Porsche built in a Korean, Japanese or a Chinese factory?

As someone who is currently managing a transmission build program, yes, I would.

If you think there is some sort of extra value from simply having German assemblers on the line you are wrong.

The people are a small part of the quality formula. The NVH testers and the torque testers at the end of the line are a big part of the QA process, and they are the same around the world, as are the processes, and the tools.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by CJFusco

Yeah, you know, it's funny: when it comes to luxury brands nowadays, it almost seems like a happy accident when a specific model ends up representing excellence, and it seems to take time to figure out which models hang in there (just as it's taken some time for the public to begin to realize that the m96 and m97 engines are fragile). For example, although BMW has had a score of drivetrain problems in the 2000s, the E39 platform is largely considered a paragon of quality; many sources attest that if you buy yourself a late 90s/early 00s 528 or 540, you're buying a car that will last well into the 200+K mile range. This used to be something that people understood inherently about a given make of car; for example, what were the two things that people knew about Volvo in the late 80s/early 90s? They are super safe, and they last forever. Sure enough, where I live (western Connecticut) you see COUNTLESS Volvo 240s, 740s, 850s, and even V70s on the road. I've never really counted, but I'd be willing to bet that you see more 200k+ mile, 20+ years old Volvos on the road here than any other make.

What will be today's luxury cars that still hang in there? Smart money is probably on Lexus and Audi right now based on initial quality and long-term test results, but as their electronics age, who knows? After all, the m97 generation of Porsche sports cars always did very well in those kinds of metrics, and look what's happening now.

Funny that you mention BMW, they are on my "never again" list. Sure an E39 might go 200k, but by that point your interior will have fallen apart, VANOS failed, suspension bushings been replaced 3x, cooling system replaced 2x, maybe a transmission rebuild, etc. Great driving cars but they are made of broken. I'll take a 9X6 over an E39 any day of the week.

[pwd72s]

Never had one, but the word from friends who do, Lexus is tops when it comes to reliability and long life. Not surprising, considering that Toyota is the parent company.

We did buy a Camry for Cindy recently. She likes it so far. But at only 3,000 miles, I sure can't give any long term results. NOT a bit of excitement as far as driving is concerned, but that isn't why we bought it.

[fastfredracing]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton

I don't know the history/accuracy of the blue paint tales. But I can say that cylinder scoring is quite common. I would say more common than IMSB failures. We are rebuilding a few scored cylinder motors each year now, and only one IMSB failure (which had an aftermarket bearing- go figure).

We have another 2006 cayman S coming shortly with cylinder scoring, a 997 coming as well shortly. My wife just called a local used car dealer about a 2008 Cayman they had only to find out it has a scored cylinder. I have personally owned 2 cars with scored cylinders (2008 Cayman S and 2005 997 S).

If you are buying one of these cars and purchasing an aftermarket warranty, please make sure the coverage amount per claim will cover the engine rebuild cost. We have seen a couple cases where a client thought he was covered only to find out his warranty did not cover even half of the cost...

Do you mind me asking some industry information ? When you say you are rebuilding them, what are you doing about the cylinders ? Do you have a machine shop that will sleeve, or re-bore and replate? I am working on more and more water cooled cars now a days, and I know I am going to be faced with this sooner or later .

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by CJFusco

I'm no engineer or expert but I've read up on this issue, so I'll chime in as best I can. Those of you who know more can feel free to correct any details I get wrong.

There are a number of factors that contribute to bore/cylinder scoring: the material used to line the cylinder wall, engine internal temperature, and oil viscosity being chief among them. From what I understand, if the engine temp is high and the engine is run at a high RPM (especially before the oil is properly warmed, which can be exacerbated by the inaccuracy of the in-dash gauge), the lack of lubrication between the cylinder and the cylinder wall can create a friction that creates a "scratch" on the side of the cylinder wall that might not in and of itself be a problem, but as time goes on that defect in the cylinder wall grows. Owners of m97-engined cars start noticing that their car is consuming more oil, and they start to notice the engine running a little rougher and more smoke from their left tailpipe (or that their left tailpipe gets dirtier faster than the right).

This appears to be the cancer of the m97 engine, and is far more common than the IMS bearing failures that plagued the m96 cars. It can also be a problem because it often doesn't get diagnosed until it's too late -- these cars burn a little oil anyhow, and a lot of cars have darker left tailpipes even without a bore scoring issue.

What can one do to prevent it? Don't bring the engine into the top of the rev range before it's totally warmed up (significantly later than the gauge in the dash indicates). Build revs gradually. Install a 3rd radiator and a low-temp thermostat. Use better oil than Mobil1; there are m97 experts out there who will attest that Mobil1 is actually contributing to this issue and advise using Motul or Joe Gibbs oil.

It appears that "cylinder failure" (which is different than "cylinder scoring") is a totally different issue that's affecting more and more m96 and m97 engines as time goes on; this is what my car *might* be showing symptoms of. I won't know for sure until my local shop takes a look, though.

Thank you for the excellent answer!

I switched away from Mobil 1 in the early 2000s. I thought the same way about it's lack of protection. Motul, hmm...

[911_Dude]

Not the oil. Please!

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Thank you for the excellent answer!

I switched away from Mobil 1 in the early 2000s. I thought the same way about it's lack of protection. Motul, hmm...

Switched to?

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by 911_Dude

Not the oil. Please!

Ya don't wantcha engine ta go "Kaboom" do ya?