Another USN ship in collision

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Wow that is a terrifying way to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah.

Over the 4.5 years I was on board the E we lost 8 mates at sea that I can easily recall. Only one could possibly have been non "work related". It was the same Aleutians cruise. We had a scheduled man over board drill one morning and a WO turned up missing. He was last seen at a shift change the night before. Jumped, murdered???? Never know. Missing at sea.

I've been in the voids JR described, in dry dock after we hit Bishops Rock and tore a huge gash along the port side. Ripped off most of the port side bilge keel as well. We were due to deploy in a couple of months and was out on work ups when we hit. Technology makes us complacent which only increases the severity of the consequences when mistakes are made.

[jyl]

Seventh Fleet Commander removed from position.

[daepp]

My daughter is an OOD of a sister ship to the two that were damaged.

I have zero Navy experience.

A few things I think I know:
- she has received a great deal of training. It began in school, but also many months on the bridge,much demanding training and many boards to pass. Also many many hours in state of the art simulators.
- They have been doing it this way for some. How long, I don't know.
- Merchant ships quite often are without being steered by autopilot alone
- While not only navigating with respect to the rules of the road etc, there are treacherous currents, and amazing amounts of wind loads that both act upon each ship. Very tough to predict
- These things happen in shipping lanes, which are quite crowded
- Her DDG lost steering as well. - when two of their generators went south. She told me that the manual over-ride takes two men to turn a crank, and it takes 30 rotations of the manual crank to get 1 deg of rudder turn
- This is a very very difficult thing to arm-chair quarterback by civilians like me
- And most Americans are unaware of the HUGE amount of work our ships do to escort merchants and to protect against pirates and our enemies

There might be some systemic problems here with the Navy and their training - I don't really know. But I sure want to know.

And one more thing - those merchants who are now oft quote as "IF it's grey - stay away" I seriously wonder how they'd like it if the US taxpayers - and their brave loved ones - quit all their protection and freedom of navigation duties?

[Neilk]

Originally Posted by daepp

My daughter is an OOD of a sister ship to the two that were damaged.

...
- Her DDG lost steering as well. - when two of their generators went south. She told me that the manual over-ride takes two men to turn a crank, and it takes 30 rotations of the manual crank to get 1 deg of rudder turn
....

Can't they put one engine in reverse to get the ship to change course or does that take too long?

[Wetwork]

Originally Posted by Neilk

Can't they put one engine in reverse to get the ship to change course or does that take too long?

That all depends on how much forward momentum the vessel has in the first place.

A single screw boat, will turn slower or faster in a single direction, either port or starboard depending on which direction the screw turns.

If you have a twin screw boat you can split the screws to pivot or force a quicker or slower turn depending on which way the rudders are pointed. Small double screw boats normally have counter rotating screws.

I know blaw blaw, he-he but depending on how fast a boat is going makes a huge difference you are fighting intertia. I think you could google "Full ahead to Full astern distance" for a destroyer and find it. Probably several ship length's.-WW

ps. I just read destroyers are double screw boats so in theory you could use the engines alone to steer the ship if the rudders aren't too far over. But it would be easy to loose the heading from wind or what not and get way off to the Jones's and have to come clear about.

[nota]

yes motor speed will turn them
likely not like the motor boats that will spin inside their length
esp at speed but should miss a 600ft ship with out sweat

btw this is the 3rd hit by a big ship something is wrong
too many il-tronic war games not enough watch standing with mark 1 eyeballs ?

[Don Ro]

In an interview this AM the captain of the USS Cole told that when he was a young officer they all were sent up North for 16 weeks of training...but now the young officers are given a CD and told that they're on their own.
Sub-optimal training.
That, and when they've put in a full day of service, they are often put on watch for 4 hrs.
That was his explanation as to why these incidents are occurring.

[Wetwork]

Originally Posted by Don Ro

That, and when they've put in a full day of service, they are often put on watch for 4 hrs.
That was his explanation as to why these incidents are occurring.

Its been that way for...ever...think sails and steam. But depending on how large the crew is you might only go on watch every few days. I was on a small cutter, we had only 19 man crew. We stood a normal four hour watch after working all day. But it depends on which four hour slot you had for watch (somebody is always on watch driving the boat). It wasn't really that bad I promise. And work all day is mostly mind sweat for Commissioned Officers. Hard but not physical. And factor in commonly called "dog watches" which are just a couple of two hour watches so you can change up the routine and put different people into the rotation at new times. Being stuck on the 12 to 4's for weeks can flip you out.-WW

[daepp]

Originally Posted by Neilk

Can't they put one engine in reverse to get the ship to change course or does that take too long?

They actually don't even have to put the engine in reverse. All they need to do is reverse the pitch on one prop - the engines always turn in the same direction - they're turbines.

That said, they are frequently "trailing" one prop. That means that they have feathered one prop for minimal drag, and one set/side of turbines has been shut off. This saves wear and tear on major components, as well as fuel.

The problem with this operation is that if the McCain or the Fitzgerald needs to turn abruptly, it takes much longer if that turn is towards the operating prop. It's easy to turn say, to the port if the port prop is trailing - just accelerate the starboard; conversely, it takes forever to turn to port if the port prop is propelling the ship.

There has been speculation that this may have been the case in the Fitzgerald incident.

[daepp]

[daepp]

Crowded waters filled with ships waiting to make the transit

[crustychief]

As a 20 + year Surface Warfare Navy Chief, OOD qualified and now a Naval weapons contractor working on Navy ships worldwide daily...
Before smartphones, sailors could text and send pictures and were mildly distracted while in cell phone range. As a CPO, you would ensure the phones were put away while on watch and in other situations. Sailors ( especially junior Officers and junior enlisted) being of the same age group would play video games and watch movies in common areas. When smartphones started making the scene it became a lot tougher because now the sailors did not have to be at a "plugged in" television or video game to play or watch their favorite shows. The last part of my active duty career I found many sailors standing watch playing fruit ninja, watching downloaded movies etc. Ass chewing first offense, Disciplinary review board and or Captains mast were the order of the day. Being retired since 2008 and still boarding ships daily, all those junior sailors are now the CPO's and command rank officers. Sometimes it is hard not to fall back on reliving my days as a Chief and tell them to put their phones away and pay attention. This is just one of the major issues I see daily. Another issue is ( especially in the LCS community) the contracting of everything from sweepers ( yes they have maids now) to stores onloads and routine maintenance. It has fostered a new level of apathy and a very serious atrophy of basic seamanship/occupational skills. I remember sailors used to have a sense of ownership for what their commands had accomplished and I just don't see that anymore. In the LCS community, even the Commanding officer participates in cleaning passageways. How does that affect the eager Junior officers aspirations to excel and become a Commanding Officer when they are pretty much on the same level doing menial tasks? I love my sailors but do get concerned at what I see daily. Sorry for the rant, just had to throw it out there

[Seahawk]

That is a really interesting perspective, Sandy. Thanks.

I'll be in San Diego in October: I'll buy you dinner if you can get me on an LCS pier side!

I'll buy dinner any way, but an old sailor has to barter!

Originally Posted by crustychief

As a 20 + year Surface Warfare Navy Chief, OOD qualified and now a Naval weapons contractor working on Navy ships worldwide daily...
Before smartphones, sailors could text and send pictures and were mildly distracted while in cell phone range. As a CPO, you would ensure the phones were put away while on watch and in other situations. Sailors ( especially junior Officers and junior enlisted) being of the same age group would play video games and watch movies in common areas. When smartphones started making the scene it became a lot tougher because now the sailors did not have to be at a "plugged in" television or video game to play or watch their favorite shows. The last part of my active duty career I found many sailors standing watch playing fruit ninja, watching downloaded movies etc. Ass chewing first offense, Disciplinary review board and or Captains mast were the order of the day. Being retired since 2008 and still boarding ships daily, all those junior sailors are now the CPO's and command rank officers. Sometimes it is hard not to fall back on reliving my days as a Chief and tell them to put their phones away and pay attention. This is just one of the major issues I see daily. Another issue is ( especially in the LCS community) the contracting of everything from sweepers ( yes they have maids now) to stores onloads and routine maintenance. It has fostered a new level of apathy and a very serious atrophy of basic seamanship/occupational skills. I remember sailors used to have a sense of ownership for what their commands had accomplished and I just don't see that anymore. In the LCS community, even the Commanding officer participates in cleaning passageways. How does that affect the eager Junior officers aspirations to excel and become a Commanding Officer when they are pretty much on the same level doing menial tasks? I love my sailors but do get concerned at what I see daily. Sorry for the rant, just had to throw it out there

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by crustychief

As a 20 + year Surface Warfare Navy Chief, OOD qualified and now a Naval weapons contractor working on Navy ships worldwide daily...
Before smartphones, sailors could text and send pictures and were mildly distracted while in cell phone range. As a CPO, you would ensure the phones were put away while on watch and in other situations. Sailors ( especially junior Officers and junior enlisted) being of the same age group would play video games and watch movies in common areas. When smartphones started making the scene it became a lot tougher because now the sailors did not have to be at a "plugged in" television or video game to play or watch their favorite shows. The last part of my active duty career I found many sailors standing watch playing fruit ninja, watching downloaded movies etc. Ass chewing first offense, Disciplinary review board and or Captains mast were the order of the day. Being retired since 2008 and still boarding ships daily, all those junior sailors are now the CPO's and command rank officers. Sometimes it is hard not to fall back on reliving my days as a Chief and tell them to put their phones away and pay attention. This is just one of the major issues I see daily. Another issue is ( especially in the LCS community) the contracting of everything from sweepers ( yes they have maids now) to stores onloads and routine maintenance. It has fostered a new level of apathy and a very serious atrophy of basic seamanship/occupational skills. I remember sailors used to have a sense of ownership for what their commands had accomplished and I just don't see that anymore. In the LCS community, even the Commanding officer participates in cleaning passageways. How does that affect the eager Junior officers aspirations to excel and become a Commanding Officer when they are pretty much on the same level doing menial tasks? I love my sailors but do get concerned at what I see daily. Sorry for the rant, just had to throw it out there

That is the insite I was hoping to see in the thread. My Navy experience is all from watching TV and movies and that is like relying on Google to provide the news.

I have no ideas about how to solve the problem. Since October 13, 1775 the men have died in the Navy. I guess now even women, and most accidents are just someones colossal screw up. For a modern US Navy vessel to be in a collision with another ship just seems almost impossible to understand. Airplanes have very few collisions and they are moving orders of magnitude faster and there are more airplanes flying than all the ships in the Navy.

I see the press loves stories about automation of cars driving themselves and how it will make driving safer. In the case of the recent collisions I am sure there was some automation in use but the Navy should always have humans on the watch and that tanker must have a HUGE radar signature.

I feel certain the Navy will make some changes and hopefully fix the issue.

[70SATMan]

It boggles my mind thinking of the access modern sailors have today compared to my stint in the 80s. No calls, only letters.

Can't imagine having to deal with distracted sailors on their cell phones. I'd go Capt Quieg.

[Wetwork]

Originally Posted by crustychief

As a 20 + year Surface Warfare Navy Chief, OOD qualified and now a Naval weapons contractor working on Navy ships worldwide daily...
Before smartphones, sailors could text and send pictures and were mildly distracted while in cell phone range. As a CPO, you would ensure the phones were put away while on watch and in other situations. Sailors ( especially junior Officers and junior enlisted) being of the same age group would play video games and watch movies in common areas. When smartphones started making the scene it became a lot tougher because now the sailors did not have to be at a "plugged in" television or video game to play or watch their favorite shows. The last part of my active duty career I found many sailors standing watch playing fruit ninja, watching downloaded movies etc. Ass chewing first offense, Disciplinary review board and or Captains mast were the order of the day. Being retired since 2008 and still boarding ships daily, all those junior sailors are now the CPO's and command rank officers. Sometimes it is hard not to fall back on reliving my days as a Chief and tell them to put their phones away and pay attention. This is just one of the major issues I see daily. Another issue is ( especially in the LCS community) the contracting of everything from sweepers ( yes they have maids now) to stores onloads and routine maintenance. It has fostered a new level of apathy and a very serious atrophy of basic seamanship/occupational skills. I remember sailors used to have a sense of ownership for what their commands had accomplished and I just don't see that anymore. In the LCS community, even the Commanding officer participates in cleaning passageways. How does that affect the eager Junior officers aspirations to excel and become a Commanding Officer when they are pretty much on the same level doing menial tasks? I love my sailors but do get concerned at what I see daily. Sorry for the rant, just had to throw it out there

That's pretty much what I saw happening in the USCG also Chief. I retired from my twenty in 2009. Huge changes huh? Our OINC's and CO's and Chief's all had the Viet Nam ribbon when I got in just like yours did, so it was such a different world. You would still get taken to either the paint locker or Boatswain hole for attitude training. By the time I got out, boot's would pull the "I'm stressed out" BS and fully expect that to be acceptable. We went from no internet to smart phones. I saw new ships built under minimal manning just because they could now use cameras to check the spaces where roving watches did the rounds. That's great, except in my head, less people on a crew also means less people to respond for a damage party. I'm sure you knew how heavy a P-250 was and now with minimal crew that's less folks to drag those around.

For me I went from small boats with cable throttles with instant response to drive by wire. There was a delay in throttle response so you had to spend a lot of hours learning to engage the props early before the boat even responded. Doesn't sound like much but in a surf zone a two second delay could end you with the keel facing up. When the SAR alarm went off, you actually had to run to a computer and check a boat out before the launch. You were supposed to sit down with your duty crew and fill out a GAR model to go over possible dangers and how tough the mission may be. Bare in mind this was all supposed to happen while you can hear someone begging for their life over the radio.

Most of my career when that alarm went off and you were sprinting to the boats, it was already running and lines singled up, because your crew had beat you there.

For the snipes they actually have to go to a tool locker, have a tool issued and logged in the computer and return the tool to check back at the end of the work day. Even if it was a single screwdriver. So you'd have Droopy sailor, moping his way to a wrench, then twiddle his thumbs get his wrench, then mope his way to the job, work five minutes, then mope his way back to check it in before coffee break, then re-check it out, mope back to the job, then it was time to check it back in for lunch...on and on. In my day they got a damn tool bag and went to work and were proud when they came back all sooty and oily. Probably why most of us called them the dirty people.

All the cool computer stuff actually just made everyone spend vastly more time in front of a desk than actually doing a job.

I went to SAR stations the rest of my career (you get locked in as a Surfman it was too specialized) so I was in a way different field than our Cutterman. I only saw real brass on rare official visits a couple of times a year. Warrants and Chiefs commanded the small boat communities. Officers do not command CG small boats unless its a huge training unit and they have to be qualified Surfman to do such. Which is incredibly rare. . I'm glad I wasn't a squid with so many people to deal with. There are more jarheads on Paris Island than the whole CG and we liked it that way. Anyway great insight Chief thank you. Fair Winds. -WW

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

It boggles my mind thinking of the access modern sailors have today compared to my stint in the 80s. No calls, only letters.

Can't imagine having to deal with distracted sailors on their cell phones. I'd go Capt Quieg.

Petty Officer running the space I worked in would have dumped a bucket over you and your phone and told you to get a mop and clean up the mess. No smart phones back then, but they still had buckets of water and mops. Saw it happen to a guy writing a letter when he was supposed to be on watch. Guy spent the next few hours soaking wet too.

[daepp]

Originally Posted by crustychief

As a 20 + year Surface Warfare Navy Chief, OOD qualified and now a Naval weapons contractor working on Navy ships worldwide daily...
Before smartphones, sailors could text and send pictures and were mildly distracted while in cell phone range. As a CPO, you would ensure the phones were put away while on watch and in other situations. Sailors ( especially junior Officers and junior enlisted) being of the same age group would play video games and watch movies in common areas. When smartphones started making the scene it became a lot tougher because now the sailors did not have to be at a "plugged in" television or video game to play or watch their favorite shows. The last part of my active duty career I found many sailors standing watch playing fruit ninja, watching downloaded movies etc. Ass chewing first offense, Disciplinary review board and or Captains mast were the order of the day. Being retired since 2008 and still boarding ships daily, all those junior sailors are now the CPO's and command rank officers. Sometimes it is hard not to fall back on reliving my days as a Chief and tell them to put their phones away and pay attention. This is just one of the major issues I see daily. Another issue is ( especially in the LCS community) the contracting of everything from sweepers ( yes they have maids now) to stores onloads and routine maintenance. It has fostered a new level of apathy and a very serious atrophy of basic seamanship/occupational skills. I remember sailors used to have a sense of ownership for what their commands had accomplished and I just don't see that anymore. In the LCS community, even the Commanding officer participates in cleaning passageways. How does that affect the eager Junior officers aspirations to excel and become a Commanding Officer when they are pretty much on the same level doing menial tasks? I love my sailors but do get concerned at what I see daily. Sorry for the rant, just had to throw it out there

I'm curious, Chief, did you see this type of activity on the bridge? And did you see it while underway?

The reason I ask is the my brand-spanking-new OOD daughter describes her bridge watch time so differently than what I read above. I'm not sure when/why, but sometimes her bridge watches are 5 hours and sometimes they are 3. And she has impressed upon me how intense it is; so much so, she says she can think of absolutely nothing else. She claims there's not even a minute to daydream. And I'll add, on her DDG there is no wifi and of course, no cellular connectivity at all. The get a bit of time at a desktop when the Captain has the satellite link allocated to emailing home, but that's it. Nothing to use their cell phone for AFAIK - at least when underway.

Let me reiterate - I have zero experience here.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by daepp

The reason I ask is the my brand-spanking-new OOD daughter describes her bridge watch time so differently than what I read above. I'm not sure when/why, but sometimes her bridge watches are 5 hours and sometimes they are 3. And she has impressed upon me how intense it is; so much so, she says she can think of absolutely nothing else. She claims there's not even a minute to daydream. And I'll add, on her DDG there is no wifi and of course, no cellular connectivity at all. The get a bit of time at a desktop when the Captain has the satellite link allocated to emailing home, but that's it. Nothing to use their cell phone for AFAIK - at least when underway.

Just a few points from me, much less valuable than Sandy's opinion.

Command climate has a lot to do with how ships operate. I cruised on Frigates and Aegis Destroyers and the feel of the ship from one CO to the next could be astounding.

Sounds like your young SWO got a good ship. Fantastic.

Back in the day - remember I was an OOD on a steam ship - the watches were four hours with a two hour dog of the watch everyday.

Dogging means the watches move - you don't stand watch the same time every day.

[John Rogers]

Ahhhh you kids! I retired in 1985 and the new class of destroyers and cruisers were just coming out and were still manned at "old" levels. The electronics were getting much more integrated and complicated as to what we had on the nuclear powered cruisers such as Bainbridge or Virginia. All our CO's were nuclear trained, had been a chief engineer and probably one other department head so they had been exposed to "HG" himself and were pretty tight with the written rules. We had enough manning for all departments to stand 4 x 8 or 6 x 12 all the time. I remember when one of the first "automated" ships came out to San Diego around 1980 or so with early computer run engine rooms and half way from Norfolk this started breaking and the engines had to be run manually and they flew shipyard people out to cover the extra manning needed! I think it was one of the first LPH type of ships and the CO tried parking it with the island away from the pier. The forward port corner of the flight deck knocked over the large radio/radar testing tower at the end of the pier onto several cars! I thought then, the new navy is coming and automation is not going to be a good thing!