I apologize, I think the best thing that Porsche and PCA has going for it is the passion that their owners feel, so it is unlikly that emotions can be left out when discussing such things.

PS. I really don't want any advertising for my little shop, I can not keep up with customers I have. This is a part time gig and hobby of mine, not a livelyhood. The shop only covers my parts and racing fees, which has been ugly this year.

I really do prefer playing nice, meaness is not a part of my basic personality. As any of my freinds will tell you, hopefully!

Keith

[This message has been edited by ks911 (edited 03-03-2001).]

Hey KS911,

I just picked up a '68 912 for $650. Someone stuffed a vw 1600 into. At first I thought of parting it out, but after reading through this thread I would consider a V8. Since the interior is crap, I figured I would strip it out and give it the racer look. Do you have a part and mfg. list that you can e-mail me? I am trully interested.
As for the purist, I have 2 uncut versions also.


Thanks
Tim
'77 911S
'86 944
and now '68 912

feelyx,

The only thing that you will need to change is the rear trailing arms, your 68' wheel base is 2.5 shorter than mine, and the wieght bias is OK on my car but would be scary with the short wheel base. Changing the trainling arms will do it, of course you will also have to rework fenders. You are welcome to e-mail me and I will give you my Phone no. that would be a lot easier to transfer info.

Good luck,
Keith

That 396 motor is worth about as much as a 930 exhaust system. Kinda drives home the point of the V8 swap doesn't it.

As for your occupation - I thought the 3 x's was your way of leaving it blank. I was just joking about the porn stuff!

[This message has been edited by RarlyL8 (edited 03-03-2001).]

sr911@5:04 am Excellent and well written post!

Aircool: Its interesting how you continue to use that lame "straight line" and "overheating" crouch like it pertains to ks911 or a quality SBC 911 swap. There are good reasons a stock 911 should stay stock, but "straight line" and "overheating" does not hold water on this thread (pun?).

Diverdan: Good point! I'm wondering.... according to an unamed poster a SBC will "NEVER" run those RPMs. Muhahahah (circle trackers run those RPM all night long)

As requested I hav typed up an SBC custom build recipe as it relates to a 911 swap.

Ralyl8 or anybody experiance in Chevy H.P.

The top end of my motor can handle the 7,000Rpm redline I am looking for but the bottom end can't yet. Also want more Hp, OH YA. Thinking of 383 stroker kit. The block is a four bolt main with cast crank, rods are pink rods with cast pistons, don't like the forged piston rattle when cold. There are a bunch of 383 stroker kits, with the 6.0 rods, Eagle has one, so does summit, is there one that you would recommend. Looking for ~450-500 Hp I have around 425 now. Like I said the heads are g2 Trick flow heads and should flow enough for a more serious motor. The engine pulls strong to 6,000Rpm but I limit it at that. I know more about building Porsche engines that Chevys. 930 Trans. should be in this week.

Thanks,
Keith

[This message has been edited by ks911 (edited 03-03-2001).]

Drop the factory engines, and build your own (or have it built to your specs). Here are some tips:

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 03-03-2001).]

I could post a short thesis study here to be more accurate to what I’m building, but I’ll cut to my personal key points as they relate to MY application. I’m not building an engine for a 1970 Chevelle or a GMC truck either. This is for my 2500lb 911 w/ 930 four speed. The build is targeted at driving to the grocery store and being able to beat anything factory on the way. An additional comment, I also plan on pulling away from anything made in Japan with 500lbs of speakers in it.

This information is aimed at my specific application using a pre 1987 SBC and CURRENT aftermaret parts. Much of it can be applied towards other SBC and other engines for that matter. Ok here we go - In ADDITION to the basic rebuild and reliability requirements, and misc. easy to do mods this is where the fun starts:

BLOCK: Priority is in maching for correct bore size (use a deck plate) and decking for proper sealing and piston to head quench. To aid in bore strength bore min that is needed.

LOWER END rotating assembly (This is where you make your money is you have the time): CRANK - Stock forged are strong enough for any street engine I could build. The mods are lengthy, the more mods the better. The priority should be to drill the big end journals and knife edge the counter weights, remember to reduce the rods and piston wts first, then crank weight, because the last thing will be the crank counter weights losing diameter accordingly (about 5/8 of an inch!).
The simple mods can be done with a grinder. 25 hours of work will provide a smooth hi revving lower end and give 12-15 hp @ 7500, I don’t have dyno facts on what the power advantages will be in my power band. The goal is to pick up 8-10 hp at my engines peak and more importantly reduce baggage thus adding reliability. With the LARGE reduction in the rotating assembly, allowing the counterweight modified, the crank scraper’s efficiency can improve, and up to 15 hp may become available at my peak hp (vice 8-10); more free hp usually means more reliability (free meaning it is released from the moving parts). Time can be saved by using an economical SCAT cast crank, they are extremely durable, and my app will not be able to break it.
RODS-Stock rods can be reliable and handle roughly 9.5:1/350hp/6,000 rpm, correctly set and w/ minor mods this can be reliable to 400hp and 7,000 (THIS IS ALL I NEED). Do NOT USE rods with off center pin bores*, thin shoulders by the bolts heads, or improper machine of the mating surfaces (a slight angle cut adds stress). *You can spend the bank and the rod can break at the off centered pin bore on a mild engine. Stock rods run about 605-620 grams, the rod has roughly 50 grams of extra baggage. Lighten it! The weakest aspect is the bolt, once ARP bolts are used, the shoulder of the rod by the bolts will be the next weakest link, therefore shot peening needs to be concentrated in this area. The alternative is using a 608 gram SCAT sportsman style rod (can be lightened to 570). For my app using an overly strong and heavy race rod adds USELESS wt. Ultra light stock or sportsman rod will bring more efficiency in power. PISTONS – For my app forged econo Ross pistons are light and well built or KB hypereutectic cast have a good reputation in many circles (KBs have been tested well beyond my requirements). Flat tops WILL be used on my motors; the only exception may be a raised or lowered D shape. Flat tops WILL deliver more quench area, reducing octane requirements and adding efficiency. One Total Seal ring will be used.

VIBRATION DAMPER (it's not a harmonic balancer)- A damper WILL reduce power-robbing vibrations. According to dyno tests, the larger the better.

OILING: Using a high volume pump (not high pressure) and adding a few oiling mods to the block will greatly add the performance of the lubrication system. One example is drilling a small hole in the block aimed to squirt oil up under the piston skirt will reduce piston temp by as much as 200 degrees F. When required a reliably small touch of NOS may be used 75-100 hp, then piston oil cooling will alleviate any heat/endurance issues that may arise at that level of power. One note, oil pumps can cause chatter and power loss, common methods to reduce this should be utilized. Using thin synthetic oil, I tend to favor a blue printed and ported Melling high volume pump set up at 55 psi with the oil relief output redirected. This will provide more reliable, cooler synthetic oil at approx 45-50psi. Using a deep MOROSO oil pan with a sheet metal windage tray is an excellent addition and will almost eliminate a lightweight 350 SBC crank from hitting the oil in the pan, if a shallow pan most be used a mesh screen will work better vice the sheetmetal tray.

HEADS (this is where you have to decide how efficient and much potential your engine needs): My app requires an alum head. Trick flow heads have new chamber design that sets then ahead of older aftermarket heads, they hav dif runners volumes available (street or HiRPM). For my app the street heads are unbeatable at $850 a pair new, I have not seem anything older than the TrickFlow beat it out of the box on a street engine. I could run any alum head and have a good engine, but the Trick Flow gives me the efficiency potential I’m looking for. They even bolt on and perform noticeably better than Chevy’s new Vortec head. I'm considering adding a thermal barrier in the chamber, and looking for efficiency and dyno test.

CAMS/VALVE TRAINS (remember I do cannonball runs back home to the Midwest):
I’m not a fan of OVERALL valve lifts exceeding 500-525 or big durations over 230’@.050 on an SBC app like mine. I DON’T need it; it adds reliability and efficiency issues I would have to address. Buying a tried and true valve train combination will save time. If I run into good used roller cam that fits into my game plan (or can be reground to the correct lift/Dur) I use them. Quality roller TIP rockers are always used. Depending on airflow (heads) and cam lift the higher ratio rockers allowed the better. A solid bet for my app would be TFS heads and a cam made for 1.6 rockers. Use min spring tension for the lift.

INDUCTION: New designs of Holley, Edelbrock, Weiand etc will work, used alum intakes are good, Edelbrock carbs are great out of the box, old design Holleys need experienced work to run better, but aftermarket builders get goods results and will mail you a carb. DO NOTEXPECT to grab a big Holley and expect big horsepower; it almost always takes work to get good results. I prefer an Edelbrock midrange combo out of the box for my app (600-750 cfm w/ Performer RPM intake). Match porting and working the top ridge of the intake runner is not a waste of time, but can be done later as time permits. If I get the opportunity I will have my intake coated with a thermal barrier and adjust the carb accordingly (looks nice also). Don’t use crappy or small air filters. Stacks to direct the air will help efficiency

IGNITION: For my rpm range a modified HEI ignition is the dyno’d way to go, I can spend three times as much and have a better ignition at higher rpms, but I don’t need it, maybe later. Accell’s HEI or MSDs usually get the spin on my SBC. The daily use do NOT use stock soft inner fiber plug wires, use a quality spiral core. A regular plug trimmed back to the center of the electrode will work great, make sure it’s the correct heat range and a a few bucks reach in and change it out when the electrode starts to wear.

EXHAUST: For a street SBC would be 1 5/8”, a stepped exhuast 1 5/8” to 1 3/4” merged into a long collector may provide an advantage, but in the case of 911 SBC, a shorty 1 5/8 will deliver the required hp and getting a longer exhuast in may not be worth the time or money.

Has anyone noticed where Porsche puts the power peak on their “daily drivable” 930 engines? I just noticed the 1987 930 happens to end up where I plan on having my hp peak. 5,500 looks good, I should end up peaking some where between 5,400 – 5,900, the difference will of course be a TON more torque and much wider more ENJOYABLE power band.

Used in a 2500lb four speed daily driver/road runner - A reliable 360-400 hp from a 377 SBC can be achieved using the above recipe, INCLUDING the MILD cam design. As a side note, with more low end power a full bodied Chevy would be better suited with a 360-400 hp lower rpm 383 (or a long rod 400) as a daily driver/weekend "straight line" car.


[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 03-03-2001).]

KS911 - you should talk with Rod Simpson about engine mods. He has been building and racing these hybrids for 30 years and really has it down. He even has custom ground camshafts specifically for Porsche weight and gearing.

The 400 crank is externally ballance, I don't know if it can be used with the V8 kits. You might consider a short stroke engine for racing, but then you are getting away from maximizing torque. The engine would have a more "Porsche" like power band, but with more power simply due to more cubic inches.

VW@HEART,

The TrickFlow heads will only allow lift of something like 480 due to the differant angle of the intake ports. With there pistons,500.00 you can use any cam you wish.

Also, I tried an Eldebrock carb. but had problems with fuel slosh. The center hung float Holley controls fuel a lot better in a sweeper.

[This message has been edited by ks911 (edited 03-03-2001).]

Good point about the crank, You can use a balance weight on the flywheel end of the crank but I don't think I have room, however Eagle or some one offers an internally balanced crank for the 383, it might cost 1200.00 though.

I am a purist but I am also a curious guy.

What do you think that this engine will end up costing you ks911?

I saw a crate LS1 in a Hot rod mag for about 6K and it was putting out just under 390 HP (at the flywheel I assume). Also, have you considered using NOS or other type HP boosters?

I'm truley sorry, but I would never do what you are doing to a 911. Never. To show my selective openmindedness I think it is note worthy to add that I would consider doing the conversion to a 914 (only if it was third or fourth vehicle) and making it a stop light racer. (its the high school kid in me)


Adam Roseneck

------------------
1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

KS911 - concerning the carb issues, have you considered TPI or TBI? I know that they can be pricy but when racing nothing is cheap. I have seen aftermarket 454ciTPIs used on 383ci strokers with remarkable power. Don't know if the snout would cause a clearance problem. TBIs typically go under a thousand and will also eliminate any carb maladies. This would be unusual, but a 4-Weber (Inglese) setup also might work. Very pricy, just like the Porsche counterparts.

I talked with Rod Simpson and told him about this thread. He is planning to join the Pelican family in the next day or two, so keep your eyes open. He is going to dispel many of the myths and dis-information floating around on this V8 subject.
Unless someone pays me to NOT do the conversion (ROFLMAO), I am sold!

Hey Wayne - ever think about adding the V8 kits to your inventory? LOL

Nice tech stuff!
Earlier in the thread the comment was "butchery." I've only seen one of these conversions done by some guy out of Phoenix area. We were at the Pomaona swap meet maybe a couple years back. He was trying to sell a gorgeous black, I think ex 2.7, car with a sbc running aluminum heads. There was only one word for that car and that was CRAFTSMANSHIP!!!!!!! The price was in the 18-22k range, and if one wanted such a car, it was a deal. As I recall, he had built the car for a customer and for either financial or hobby reasons, he bought it back from the customer. It was something like that. I don't think the car sold that weekend.

Dan

ks 911, Look to the world of dirt circle track racing. These guys regularly run 421ci SBC's at 7000 rpm's all night long.

Why not just use a complete 400 SBC? 17 more cubes than a 383, the same dimensions, and the power that goes with them

As far as the 400 being externally balanced, that just means you drill the flywheel, and vibration dapers instead of the counterweights on the crank. Just remember to drill the steam holes in the heads. Or you can just have the whole reciprocating assembly balanced.

I was the proud owner of a 406ci SBC once. Just don't wing it up to 6000RPM's, and miss 3rd gear. It makes a lot of pretty iron chunks http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/biggrin.gif

RarlyL8 - You can skip the stock 400 crank and ALL of the odd counterweights (toss e'm out!). Just use an extremly durable SCAT 400 stroke cast crank that comes with 350 or 400 block main journals, your choice. I have not looked in months but they used to run about $200 more than a reground stocker. SCAT's 350 stroke crank is available with a 400 blocks main bore size (thus a 377), it's the same crank in my recipe!

ks911 I heard something about fuel slosh and a piece made for it, but I was wondering how true it was and how much cornering I hade to do to make it an issue. (ks911?)
If the Edelbrock does not workout in the 911, the Holley is actually the carb all of my V8 motorhead friends keep hitting me on the head with anyway. I was thinking of eventually going to a GM TPI set w/ new aftermarket parts.

atr911: The crate engine is a good buy if its is the right combo/powerband and/or you would other wise be paying full price for all of your parts. I occasionally see crate engines still in the crate or with a few miles on them for sale. Last week an LS1 still in the crate was available locally for 3,500, probably a 340-360 true hp SS engine. For certain apps the LS1 is the greatest thing since slice bread, but I'm not sure if the added complexity/parts needed for a 911 swap would work out in comparison to an early SBC. It appears to be the ultimate all alloy V8 for the 911, along with a glass hood and Sparco seats I might drop from 2500 to 2300lbs!
I have a friend who has occasionally raced his early SBCs on weekends for years (yes around corners), his work car is 1998 LS1. When running through the gears he says it feels like his old Honda. His early SBCs have alot more hp than his 1998, but the LS1 has run respectable 12.90s, and still putt putts down the highway in 6th gear. His first big move will be steeper gears. That big group of cars running high 12s/low 13s is the same group I want to pass up and still keep my fuel efficiency.

atr911: "stop light racer"? a 914 V8 with FOUR sticky tires is a 911's worst enemy around corners. If I was more attracted to the body lines, I would have kept my 914s ( 2+2 seating would have helped my arguement with my wife).




[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 03-03-2001).]

I don't really like the looks of thr 914 either and that is why I wouldn't mind butchering it. Please don't try and rebute my view. Unlike the "facts" that can be argued with the F6 V8 debate, this is my PERSONAL opinion.

A 914 would make a great sleeper when you pull up to that flashy civic or mustang at the stoplight.

Thanks guys but I still am anxious to hear what this is costing ks911. Until then I'll leave you alone to your thread.

Adam Roseneck

------------------
1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

Pelican has many different types of Bulletin Boards, one is even for motorcycles. I believe there is enough interest in the 914/944/928/911 Porschevs to start a new BB. This would make the purists happy as well. The cars are still Porsche so the owners will need aftermarket parts, just not engine parts. You are looking for a larger customer base, yes? Here is your chance. There are a few very active conversion sites out there. They can come here.
Waddaya think Wayne?

Hey, this would be pretty cool in my 73 cab, I think its under 2000 lbs, boy, that would be a rocket ship.