I have no idea what materials are sold at a box store so I can't comment on them. I do have experience with the Versa-lok wall systems, and the bed I needed for those is more than 3 inches deep. My guess is you have a lot of clay in your soil, which makes things more difficult. I typically use compacted screenings about 12 inches deep, I use pins and not adhesives to construct the wall and I back it with a landscaping fabric and then backfill with gravel. If I'm worried about a lot of water, I put a French drain behind it.

It's a huge amount of labor to build a wall, it's even more work to try to fix one when it goes bad, this is one thing I prefer to do right the first time. I also would not leave the embankment exposed, sooner or later it will be a problem and it's a eyesore to some extent. If you occasionally get the huge rains we do in my part of the country, management of the water coming off that slope will be a issue. In the spring, it's not unusual for us to have a hard rain that lasts 2 to 4 days. It's not unusual for us to get five or 6 inches, sometimes we get double that.

You usually dont build a retaining wall for the normal weather but for the expected rain/flood. I think a compacted 6-8" base in a minimum in most applications, especially if you arent using more drain tile and stone behind the wall. Hydraulic pressure has a proven track record.

Good feedback . Quite a few guys I have checked with locally that do retaining walls say 3-4 inches of gravel under your first course is good enough . Maybe because the wall will only be 5 ' high ? Don't know . Because I'm already 5 ' under ground in the back I don't see any need to go deeper , and I do plan on running perimeter drain regardless of what I choose as the final wall product . The soil is good ole red Georgia clay :D .

Whatever product I end up with I will not backfill with dirt , it will be gravel up to maybe the top 6 " and then it will be dirt so I can have grass at the very top . I just have to figure out what I am going to use and get it done .

Here's a typical section of an reinforced wall, showing the minimums that you should use. Note that the wall slopes back towards the hill side, note that the bottom two courses are below grade. I'd suggest a couple of changes but deviate from these design details at your peril...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517943637.JPG

With tricky Michigan soil:
Sometimes it's five feet of nice topsoil over an underground layer of hard-pack clay.

Yeah, by hard-pack I mean serious hard-pack.
I was 220lbs jumping ontop a sharpened knife edge w/welded flute and that damn shovel didn't make a dent in the surface.

Everything might look great on the surface to a home owner.
Then the rainstorm percolates water through the top layers. It accumulates below ground on top of the clay.
And then it all funnels downhill into someone's basement foundation slab.

Add freeze/thaw. Or broken water pipes.
=Disaster.

So it's POURING rain out :mad: so I decided to go on CL and see if I can get some quotes for this retaining wall . Sent a text to one guy , gave him the dimensions and he came back with $9,000.00 for stackable stone and $6,900.00 for 6x6 pressure treat............ yikes ! I politely told him out of my budget . I have a text into a 2nd guy who requested pics which I sent him but I'm not expecting his quote to be too much different . To say the least I am out of touch with today's labor prices :( This is shaping up to be a project I will HAVE to do myself to stay within budget .

Weather forecast for Fri/Sat/Sun is for mega rain so not sure if we can get the electric installed or not......... bummer . Still going to try and do the house wrap on Friday but that's not looking good either............. I can't win with the weather :D

You guys that don't have to worry about freeze thaw and the effects make the replies of 3-4 inches of gravel under anything rather comical to someone that wants their walls to remain walls after one very cold winter....
Smaller walls creating a terraced look could be an idea too.

My garage slab and curb walls were done as a one part pour and I would never do it that way again.
Slab is really sucking after 18 years and has never seen a freeze cycle as I keep it heated.
Wouldn't do it that way again.

His bigger problem is his clay soil, but your point is well taken.

Since the clay soil is so impermeable could a diversion berm or channel be put in above the building on the hillside to minimize the water flowing around the building?
I think this was already mentioned earlier in this thread.

This may not totally remove the need for a wall, but at least make it simpler to have a minimal wall be sufficient?

Cheers Richard

I just had 5 tons of # 57 gravel delivered , that pile will help motivate me to do something for retaining walls :D Had a nice chat with the guy , this is the 2nd load of 57 he has delivered to me the first was for the concrete pour . Anyway we got to talking about the retaining wall . He say's he's done quite a few both stackable block and PT wood . He said with the Alan ( sp ? ) block and the way my soil has been " cut " for the excavation he see's no problem going 5 ' as self supporting . He said a base of 4 - 6 " of the # 57 and get that first row level and I'm good to go . I also stated a perimeter drain system and he agreed .

The two guys I contacted on CL about installing the retaining walls both came in at exactly 9k for stackable stone . So there is no doubt now the ONLY way I can get this done is to do it myself . Today the weather is good so far but the forecast for the next 5-6 days is ugly and the electrician has called off the install for tomorrow :( . Too muddy the trencher he felt would damage my lawn so we will hold off and try for later next week . I got a text last night from my buddy and he's available today around noon so we will try and bang out the house wrap today . That would allow me to move forward with window and door installs ............ in between downpours ;) That's it for now .

The drawing javadog posted doesn't show a deadman, but maybe that's because it's done with stackable stone.

If you go with timbers, be sure to install a deadman or two... or three... or as many as you think are needed. Probably along the sides, too.

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qaMPqKp6yvk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I still have no idea what material I am going to use for the retaining wall , and yes that This Old House video is one I have seen . I am familiar with the " dead man's " . Today a friend of mine was able to come over and in a little over 3 hours we got three sides covered in house wrap . My " deal " from CL on the roll of house wrap came up short :( . The roll the seller said had 120 ' left on it REALLY had 55 ' on it :mad: . It was still worth the $25.00 I paid for it but did a quick run to HD and picked up a roll of Everbilt brand wrap . The Tyvex was 149.99 the Everbilt was 89.00...... a no brainer in my book .

So I have one small strip on the back and a few pieces on the front and I'm 100 % done with the wrap . Today was a good day . Here are two pics of the wrap . The next 5-6 days are supposed to rain so the electrician called off doing the install tomorrow :( . So we are shooting for late next week .

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518131102.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518131102.jpg

It's not because the stone is stackable but because it is not a vertical wall. It is stepped back a small amount with each course. For his soil type, the height of his wall and that type of block (essentially a dry stack construction) he doesn't need a deadman. If he builds a vertical wood wall (bad idea) he will want one.

Is the electrician doing all of the work? Electrical is fairly easy to do and you could probably save a bit of money especially on the simple outlets and switch runs.

Since it's all theoretical..
Could you drive and squeeze a deep hole digger next to the hillside and drop down some vertical I-beams(or better) to serve as horizontal load bracing for the lumber or wall structure?

rwest you are correct I could save some money by doing the easy stuff myself . I've run electrical before but right now I just don't want to deal with it . And to be honest quite a bit of this install will NOT be completed right away . The only items right now that can be completed are 110 volt wall outlets and wall switches . None of the 220 volt stuff can be completed because I don't know EXACTLY where anything is going to go . As an example the compressor room is not built yet or the two post lift is not installed yet . I don't have a ceiling yet . So for all items like that I'm going to ask him to get me close to a spot and leave me a " loop " of wire 6 - 8 ' long . I will then complete each install when I am 100 % ready .

John70t right now anything is possible . In hindsight if I had to do it all over again I would have completed the wall first but it's too late for that . After talking to the gravel delivery guy and my buddy yesterday that helped with the house wrap I think my best option is to suck up the cost and go with the stackable Allan blocks . So my plan is to clean up/square up the excavation I have a John Deere 330 garden tractor with a mini front end loader to do that . It is just small enough to get in there . Once all perimeter edges are cleaned up and square I will dig a trench for the first course of blocks . It seems the standard is bury the first block in inches x the height of the wall . So 5 ' wall = 5 " of block has to be below grade . Add to that a 6 " bed of base material = a trough about a foot deep . I will have to dig that by hand . It is what it is .

I prefer block walls that can be pinned, like Versa-lok. Whatever you pick, make sure you look at their design suggestions. A 5 foot wall, with your soil type, and a sloped grade above it, is pushing the limits.

If I were you, I would take a serious look at re-grading that area of your property with a dozer. There may not be a lot you can do on the backside, although there is some, but there's plenty you can do on the sides that might even keep you from having to build a wall along those sides.

You also have the option of forming and pouring a concrete retaining wall, which might be an option. You are not going to like how much labor is involved in building a retaining wall out of blocks.

javadog I'm not going to like the labor involved for ANY wall material :D Hoisting 70 lb. blocks vs. 8 ' long 6x6's or RR ties pick your poison . And regrading is something I am not interested in doing I want the yard and surroundings to stay the way they look now . When the time comes ( probably the next few weeks ) I will decide on a final solution and move forward .

Hey now, Javadog may be on to a good idea there, with the idea of forming and pouring a concrete wall!
You could do the prep and forming yourself. And getting the Concrete in place will be easier than any other material we have discussed. And with your ability to find good deals on material the forming material may not run too much.

I'll be watching to see how that costs out.

Nice getting the wrap on before the big rains come.

Cheers Richard

You can rent concrete forms, you don't have to make them.

JR