Revisiting an issue

[LIRS6]

Originally Posted by SkiVT

AAR: I believe the AAR (and WUR and TTV) only gets power with the key in the starting position and when engine running. Just turning the key to run does not energize those parts. I think if you energize it like you did with the TTV, that should be a better test. I did that after taking it out of the car. Put the AAR in the freezer to see it fully open (or not) and then apply power to watch it close.

How difficult is it to remove the AAR with engine in? I'll try to test it.


Can someone confirm for me - with engine not running, if I have a fuel pump relay bypass going, and the ignition "on" then there should be power to the TTY, WUR, and AAR - correct? ** Pmax gave me the answer
Jason

[LIRS6]

Originally Posted by pmax

The AAR shares the same 12V with the WUR, so if the WUR is heating up with the FP relay bypassed as described and the AAR is not closing, the latter's probably busted. Try squirting some WD40 and see if it frees up, can't hurt.

The WUR also appears inconsistent given the lower temp should result in a lower CCP not higher as you reported.

I'm trying to get my head around the increased pressure values as well.

Jason

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by SkiVT

AAR: I believe the AAR (and WUR and TTV) only gets power with the key in the starting position and when engine running. Just turning the key to run does not energize those parts. I think if you energize it like you did with the TTV, that should be a better test. I did that after taking it out of the car. Put the AAR in the freezer to see it fully open (or not) and then apply power to watch it close.

Jason,

I have been following this thread with interest right from the beginning and curious to see how it turns out. Stick with SkiVT (Mike S.) and we spent a lot of time together diagnosing his CIS problem. He did a lot of good investigative work similar to yours. He has given you sage advises and keep working with him till you fix the problem. Mike S. has a very systematic approach in troubleshooting and feedback from him was very good. Do the same for him. Keep us posted.

Tony

[LIRS6]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Jason,

I have been following this thread with interest right from the beginning and curious to see how it turns out. Stick with SkiVT (Mike S.) and we spent a lot of time together diagnosing his CIS problem. He did a lot of good investigative work similar to yours. He has given you sage advises and keep working with him till you fix the problem. Mike S. has a very systematic approach in troubleshooting and feedback from him was very good. Do the same for him. Keep us posted.

Tony

His patience, and that of pmax, are keeping me going here.
Hope all is well with you Tony.

Jason

[SkiVT]

testing methodology question as I can't reconcile the last two videos you posted: you can only test CCP once every 6 - 8 hrs, regardless of if you tested with or without starting your engine. No Engine Start Method: you come out after the car sits for 8 hrs and the engine and WUR are both cold. You use your jumper and test pressures without starting the engine, seeing CCP first. Once you plug the WUR in and get to your max WCP, you have a warm WUR. If you then start the engine, you are at WCP and not CCP. Engine Start Method: you come out after the car sits for 8 hrs and with your pressure gauge hooked up, you start the engine. You can observe CCP in the first 10 seconds or so. The WUR begins warming, mostly by the bimetallic strip and a little with engine heat, and you end up at WCP. In this method, you now have a warm engine and warm WUR. Using either method, you need to let the WUR cool off to again see CCP.

The problem with testing pressure with an engine start is things like the TTV also come into play. No engine start method lets you use things like a vacuum pump to test CCP and WCP, with and without vacuum applied. However, it also means you need to test the TTV separately as the WUR can have correct CCP and WCP both with and without vacuum applied AND things still not work correctly. If your TTV either doesn't work to hold off vacuum OR the vacuum hoses are not hooked up correctly, you will still have a cold idle problem.

Ambient Temp: your CCP is different across different daily temperatures (see the WUR chart). So if it is 100 out, your CCP will be higher than if it is 65 out. WCP cares less as the bimetallic heater and engine warmth overcomes cold ambient air.

Your video and your pressure results: you have posted CCP without engine started twice with very close results at similar ambient. You then have the video showing an immediate CCP at 3.0. If the vacuum lines are correctly hooked up and the TTV is working and ambient was similar, this isn't possible. Did you let the WUR completely cool down before starting the engine? Another way to test the CCP is start the engine after sitting for 8 hrs, with a golf tee plugging the WUR to TTV vacuum line. This guarantees no vacuum to the WUR and again, you will see CCP for the first 10 to 15 seconds. The CCP should be the same 2.1 you saw without starting the engine.

Last part of my rambling: testing more than one thing at a time makes it hard to figure out what exactly fixes the problem. The AAR is important but I wouldn't go there until you have this WUR and TTV thing completely figured out. BTW the easiest way to see if the AAR is contributing to your problem is to connect the two hoses at the AAR together using a piece of pipe (so bypass the AAR). You are guaranteed to have air as the AAR can't obstruct airflow.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by SkiVT

testing methodology question as I can't reconcile the last two videos you posted: you can only test CCP once every 6 - 8 hrs, regardless of if you tested with or without starting your engine. No Engine Start Method: you come out after the car sits for 8 hrs and the engine and WUR are both cold. You use your jumper and test pressures without starting the engine, seeing CCP first. Once you plug the WUR in and get to your max WCP, you have a warm WUR. If you then start the engine, you are at WCP and not CCP. Engine Start Method: you come out after the car sits for 8 hrs and with your pressure gauge hooked up, you start the engine. You can observe CCP in the first 10 seconds or so. The WUR begins warming, mostly by the bimetallic strip and a little with engine heat, and you end up at WCP. In this method, you now have a warm engine and warm WUR, Using either method, you need to let the WUR cool off to again see CCP.

The problem with testing pressure with an engine start is things like the TTV also come into play. No engine start method lets you use things like a vacuum pump to test CCP and WCP with and without vacuum applied. However, it also means you need to test the TTV separately as the WUR can have correct CCP and wcp both with and without vacuum applied AND things still not work correctly. If your TTV either doesn't work to hold off vacuum OR the vacuum hoses are not hooked up correctly, you will still have a cold idle problem.

Ambient Temp: your CCP is different across different daily temperatures (see the WUR chart). So if it is 100 out, your CCP will be higher than if it is 65 out. WCP cares less as the bimetallic heater and engine warmth overcomes cold ambient air.

Your video and your pressure results: you have posted CCP without engine started twice with very close results at similar ambient. You then have the video showing an immediate CCP at 3.0. If the vacuum lines are correctly hooked up and the TTV is working and ambient was similar, this isn't possible. Did you let the WUR completely cool down before starting the engine? Another way to test the CCP is start the engine after sitting for 8 hrs, with a golf tee plugging the WUR to TTV vacuum line. This guarantees no vacuum to the WUR and again, you will see CCP for the first 10 to 15 seconds. The CCP should be the same 2.1 you saw without starting the engine.

Last part of my rambling: testing more than one thing at a time makes it hard to figure out what exactly fixes the problem. The AAR is important but I wouldn't go there until you have this WUR and TTV thing completely figured out. BTW the easiest way to see if the AAR is contributing to your problem is to connect the two hoses at the AAR together using a piece of pipe (sow bypass the AAR). You are guaranteed to have air as the AAR can't obstruct airflow.

Mike,

Only a person who has a good understanding of how the system works could deliver such a message. I am very impressed with your work. There is another individual in this forum that reminds me of you with good skill in delivering a clear and concise message...........is Ossiblue (Larry). Hope LJ is doing well.



Jayson,

Communicate with Mike. He has done this troubleshooting before and with a good understanding of what is going on in the system. And keep us posted.

Tony

[LIRS6]

Originally Posted by SkiVT

Your video and your pressure results: you have posted CCP without engine started twice with very close results at similar ambient. You then have the video showing an immediate CCP at 3.0. If the vacuum lines are correctly hooked up and the TTV is working and ambient was similar, this isn't possible. Did you let the WUR completely cool down before starting the engine? Another way to test the CCP is start the engine after sitting for 8 hrs, with a golf tee plugging the WUR to TTV vacuum line. This guarantees no vacuum to the WUR and again, you will see CCP for the first 10 to 15 seconds. The CCP should be the same 2.1 you saw without starting the engine.

Tonite I will do the following: plug the vac line to the WUR with a tee, and I will disconnect power to it as well, to ensure no influence. I'll start the engine, and report back on the initial CCP

Thanks!
Jason

[pmax]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

There is another individual in this forum that reminds me of you with good skill in delivering a clear and concise message...........is Ossiblue (Larry).

Lots of great individuals in the past (and current) have contributed to the knowledge of this forum. I couldn't have rebuilt it without understanding the CIS system absent that knowledge.

I will add that based on my digging into OLD threads the posts of psalt, Jim Williams, Peter Zimmerman and John Walker were exceptionally informative whenever the CIS topics came up.

Pay attention to every word they write !

LIRS6,

You're in good hands now but your AAR test, assuming it's done correctly which appears to be the case, does show it's not closing as it should be.

Good luck ! Keep us posted.

[LIRS6]

Originally Posted by pmax

LIRS6,

You're in good hands now but your AAR test, assuming it's done correctly which appears to be the case, does show it's not closing as it should be.

Good luck ! Keep us posted.
After I check CCP again tonite, I'll test if I'm getting power at the AAR. But if it is not closing, in theory my idle should remain higher as the engine warms up, correct? Now that I've reversed the hoses to/from the TTV I'll also report what my initial idle is when starting up and after say 5 mins - as mentioned previously, it would barely reach 1100 when cold-starting, then drop off to about 850 RPM when warm.

Thanks,
Jason

[pmax]

Originally Posted by LIRS6

After I check CCP again tonite, I'll test if I'm getting power at the AAR. But if it is not closing, in theory my idle should remain higher as the engine warms up, correct?

When the AAR remains open, the idle wouldn't drop normally compared to a functioning AAR. It doesn't necessarily mean the idle has to be "high" in your engine because of other factors, just that it doesn't drop normally.

Also, the AAR should be closed by the end of your WUR warm up fuel pressure test (w/o engine running).

[boyt911sc]

Jason,

Please review post #31. If the information you posted (red letters) regarding WCP are correct, then the WUR is one of your problems and it will never go away. You could spend all the time you want tinkering your CIS. Maybe you could get lucky. But you could not rely on LUCK all time to fix your nagging CIS problem. What you need is a set good working CIS components (WUR, FD, AAR, TTV, etc.) that are tested and confirmed good. Right now you are hoping that all these components are all good and working fine. But you do not know that as fact.

Tony

[LIRS6]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Jason,

Please review post #31. If the information you posted (red letters) regarding WCP are correct, then the WUR is one of your problems and it will never go away. You could spend all the time you want tinkering your CIS. Maybe you could get lucky. But you could not rely on LUCK all time to fix your nagging CIS problem. What you need is a set good working CIS components (WUR, FD, AAR, TTV, etc.) that are tested and confirmed good. Right now you are hoping that all these components are all good and working fine. But you do not know that as fact.

Tony

Agreed Tony, and this is what I am trying to address. TTV tested and functioning as it should. Now will next try to address AAR. Still wondering if AAR can easily be removed...? If I determine that all other components are in order, I suspect it will then be time for me to send you my WUR!

Thanks,
Jason

[SkiVT]

Yes there are two allen head screws to remove and it comes off the engine. They are a little tough to get to. Also need to disconnect both hoses and the power connection.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by LIRS6

Agreed Tony, and this is what I am trying to address. TTV tested and functioning as it should. Now will next try to address AAR. Still wondering if AAR can easily be removed...? If I determine that all other components are in order, I suspect it will then be time for me to send you my WUR!

Thanks,
Jason

Jason,

There are several CIS components you need to test and evaluate to get your engine to run flawlessly. Check the following:

FD
WUR
AAR
AAV
DV
TTV
CSV
Fuel injectors
Including air box/POV and intake runner boots.
Etc.

All the above CIS components could be bench tested conveniently by DIYers like you or me using home-made tools. Or send them to me for FREE testing. Just take care of the shipping cost. Or send them to someone who will do it for FREE and I won’t be offended.

Tony

[SkiVT]

Because I am curious, Tony: are the wcp pressure readings in black text in spec w/o vacuum? And the red text out of spec w/o vacuum? The higher readings at lower ambient are confusing but I thought the black text was in spec. Either way test and confirm as you already said.

[LIRS6]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Jason,

There are several CIS components you need to test and evaluate to get your engine to run flawlessly. Check the following:

some comments:
FD. rebuilt last summer
WUR. results shown
AAR. will test further
AAV on the list
DV. on the list
TTV. tested working
CSV. does my '79 have one?
Fuel injectors. all replaced new
Including air box/POV and intake runner boots. air box and POV are new
Etc.

All the above CIS components could be bench tested conveniently by DIYers like you or me using home-made tools. Or send them to me for FREE testing. Just take care of the shipping cost. Or send them to someone who will do it for FREE and I won’t be offended.

May I send you my WUR in November when I put her to bed for the winter?

Tony

Couldn't get to any testing tonite, will try tomorrow
Thanks,
Jason

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by SkiVT

Because I am curious, Tony: are the wcp pressure readings in black text in spec w/o vacuum? And the red text out of spec w/o vacuum? The higher readings at lower ambient are confusing but I thought the black text was in spec. Either way test and confirm as you already said.

Mike,

Take a look at the WCP chart for WUR-045:

WCP (no vac applied): 2.7 ~ 3.1 bar (See PSM)
WCP (with vac applied): 3.2 ~ 3.6 bar (See PSM)

Jason got 3.5 bar (no vac) and 3.8 bar (with vac). See the red letter in post #31. These values are out for the specified range for WCP’s. Secondly, you want a 0.5~0.6 bar difference between WCP’s (with and w/o vac). His WUR was giving only 0.30 bar delta. Jason’s WCP values are too high for WUR-045.

Your WUR-089 has a different chart profile than -045.

Tony

[SkiVT]

Thanks Tony. I was focused on the results in the post below and not on the posted response to your question (at bottom). I was comparing the results immediately below to the various 045 WUR spec pages (several different versions from other threads). The difference in these sets of numbers is mysterious but no question 3.5 and 3.8 are high.


***********************************************
Originally Posted by LIRS6 View Post

The car :

'79 SC (USA)

Original 3.0 with WUR ending 045

Red font are readings taken today. TTV hoses reversed to normal position (hose from Decel Valve in middle, WUR hose on side)

Temp : 74 deg F 66 deg F


Test results :

FP only - engine not running

System pressure: 4.9 bar. 4.8 Bar

Cold pressure : 2.1 bar. 2.3 Bar

WUR Power connected

30 secs : 2.2 bar / 31.9 psi. 2.55 Bar
60 secs : 2.45 bar / 35.5 psi. . 2.6 Bar
90 secs : 2.7 bar / 39.2 psi. 2.9 Bar
120 secs : 2.8 bar / 40.6 psi. 3.0 Bar
150 secs : 2.95 bar / 42.9 psi. 3.2 Bar
180 secs : 3.03 bar / 43.9 psi. 3.3 Bar
210 secs : 3.1 bar / 44.97 psi. 3.35
240 secs : 3.1 bar / 44.97 psi. 3.4 Bar
270 secs : 3.13 bar / 45.5 psi. 3.4 Bar

************************************************** **************

Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
Jason,

What are your control fuel pressures at:
a). Initial CCP with and without vacuum?3.0 Bar @ 73F with vacuum - haven't done it w/o vacuum
b). WCP with and without vacuum after 5 mins.? 3.8 Bar / 3.5 Bar
(Am I correct in believing that if I disconnect the vac hose to the WUR, that I am testing FP "without vacuum"?)

[LIRS6]

I am reminded of a previous question that I had - Am I correct in believing that if I disconnect the vac hose to the WUR, that I am testing FP "without vacuum"? If not, what is the correct procedure to test?

Thanks,
Jason

[SkiVT]

Testing without engine running: pressures are without vacuum UNLESS you hook up your Mightyvac to the WUR and ad vacuum. I use either the hose disconnect from the TTV and plugged to the Mightyvac or a separate hose from the Mightyvac to the WUR with the WUR to TTV hose disconnected. I would use the no-engine running test if it were me.

Testing with engine running: best way is to plug the line from WUR to TTV. It may also be w/o vacuum just by disconnecting that hose like you did in your video, but I am not 100% sure on that.

Honestly, I would Fedex the WUR to Tony for his free diagnostic. Obviously your call on the next step.