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BTW: if you remove your AAR for testing, there are little washers with the allen bolts. Be careful those dont drop off during removal and land down in the spark plug holes......
Old 09-11-2018, 05:49 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiVT View Post
BTW: if you remove your AAR for testing, there are little washers with the allen bolts. Be careful those dont drop off during removal and land down in the spark plug holes......
yikes, thanks for the heads-up!
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Old 09-11-2018, 07:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #62 (permalink)
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FYI
Erratic WCP

These statements from the post about that WUR with a similar vacuum "diaphragm" as is in yours caught my attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
You are not alone in observing this ‘strange’ behavior of the vacuum diaphragm. I had encountered this problem a few times and still could not figure out the culprit. I did Kemo’s WUR this summer and took me several hours of work to calibrate the WCP with vacuum. Actually it took me days to get it to work only after replacing the section with the diaphragm.
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I can't afford that.

Last edited by pmax; 09-12-2018 at 07:13 PM..
Old 09-12-2018, 12:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
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Eliminating possible issues

I had a chance to spend a little time on the engine this morning.

CCP at start-up :

https://youtu.be/4Nor8z0svq8

As you will see from this video, initial CCP was about 2.6 PSI. (This is way out of range - ambient temp was 70 deg F. Max should be 1.95 PSI). What influences FP?

After about 14 seconds, it moves swiftly up to about 3.0 PSI. This supports that my TTV is operating properly (SkiVT - I have the WUR hose in it's proper location on the TTV).

I drove the car for a while - maybe about 10-15 mins or so, and noted the FP - 2.65 PSI

I then detached the hose going into the AAR, and took this Video:

https://youtu.be/_6DM0JcI47M

This supports that my AAR is closing as it should.

My initial issues remain as they were; low idle at start-up, dropping idle during warm-up; stalling/almost stalling when out of gear.

So I think that I have at least eliminated the TTV and AAR as issues.

Tony has graciously offered to test my WUR, which I will pursue.

Any thoughts/comments?

Thanks,
Jason
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Old 09-16-2018, 06:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #64 (permalink)
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Troubleshooting........

Jason,

If your cold control fuel pressure was 2.6 bar and suddenly increased to 3.0 bar this could be the result of the TTV opening. However, why did the WCP dropped down later? The WCP should remain steady while the engine is running unless the vacuum supply is deteriorating (?).

There are too many variables with your problem to solve it. You need to reduce or minimize these unknown variables by testing. For example, how much vacuum does your decel valve could hold? Same with the TTV. Same with the WUR. Same with the AAV. Finding and identifying this “weak link” will help solve your nagging problem.

The culprit is right there. But we don’t recognize it yet. A systematic diagnostic test will eventually lead to its identity. At this point, I don’t believe you/we are close to finding the most likely culprit(?). Don’t give up yet.

Tony
Old 09-16-2018, 07:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #65 (permalink)
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Couple thoughts:
1) your wur has menopause. I have seen the symptoms first hand!!!
2) since you know the ccp is out, you will need to get your wur refreshed/calibrated regardless. The wcp and vacuum testing would all be part of that exercise. So doing that now and knowing you may still have troubleshooting to do when its back could be smart.
3) you could connect a hose from the wur directly to the throttle body vacuum hose and bypass the decel and TTV. Maybe start the engine first and swap the hose in after warmup. This would eliminate twonpossible culprits adding to your data.
4) connect your mightyvac to the wur. Apply vacuum and see what vacuum level holds 3.0. Try a little more and less vacuum and watch the pressure change. You can also do this using the no engine start procedure and do it at ccp and wcp. The spec chart suggests the vacuum levels.

This all takes time but it will be worth it when you solve the actual problem.
Old 09-16-2018, 10:28 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #66 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiVT View Post
Couple thoughts:
1) your wur has menopause. I have seen the symptoms first hand!!!
2) since you know the ccp is out, you will need to get your wur refreshed/calibrated regardless. The wcp and vacuum testing would all be part of that exercise. So doing that now and knowing you may still have troubleshooting to do when its back could be smart.
3) you could connect a hose from the wur directly to the throttle body vacuum hose and bypass the decel and TTV. Maybe start the engine first and swap the hose in after warmup. This would eliminate twonpossible culprits adding to your data.
4) connect your mightyvac to the wur. Apply vacuum and see what vacuum level holds 3.0. Try a little more and less vacuum and watch the pressure change. You can also do this using the no engine start procedure and do it at ccp and wcp. The spec chart suggests the vacuum levels.

This all takes time but it will be worth it when you solve the actual problem.
Intend to address "2)" shortly

Thanks,
Jason
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:12 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #67 (permalink)
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Out of my car, and off they will go to Tony.



Thanks Tony!

Jason
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #68 (permalink)
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WUR and DV tests..........

Jason,

The package arrived last Friday with the WUR and DV but was not able to do the tests till Sunday evening because of family affair. There is good news and bad news. The decel valve is good and working. It opens up @17” Hg. I prefer to have a higher vac reading and adjustment could be made. This is the good news.

The bad news:






Is this WUR you sent to me the same one that you were testing in your car? Why is the cold control fuel pressure @ 70°F is 50 psi. (3.45 bar)? This is equivalent to the WCP (warm control pressure). The vacuum diaphragm is not leaking but could only pull 4 psi. (0.30 bar). You need twice as much like 0.7~0.8 bar vacuum enrichment.

Have not done anything on this WUR except did the pressure tests. Please let me understand why the cold control fuel pressure is so much different from your data. Keep us posted.

Tony
Old 09-24-2018, 02:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #69 (permalink)
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Tony - this is the same WUR. If you consider the video that I posted in post #11, then the results are similar. Why I have other results at other times, I am not able to answer. What’s next?

Thanks
Jason
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #70 (permalink)
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Engine temperature........

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIRS6 View Post
Grab your popcorn - SkiVT; you hit it right, just off by .75 Bar or so.

I haven't done any further testing, thought I'd await some feedback to this video :

Cold start up pressure;

https://youtu.be/Zx9Kd_0VMZs

Thanks,
Jason



Jason,

I reviewed the video and saw the 50 psi. initial cold control fuel pressure and went up to 56 psi. Apparently, your WUR needs some work and you have to make a decision whether to have it fixed or corrected. What you need now is a good working WUR that you could test and use in your car. Forget about your WUR for the moment unless you like to spend countless hours looking for something we do not know.

PM me if you are interested to have a tested and calibrated WUR-045 sent to you that you could install and try on your car. This is a loaner and you are NOT buying it. Return it back to me later. I have provided hundred’s of these WUR’s ( Bosch 0-438-140-xxx) to people in this forum with remarkable success. Keep us posted.

Tony

Last edited by boyt911sc; 09-25-2018 at 07:10 AM..
Old 09-25-2018, 07:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
Jason,

PM me if you are interested to have a tested and calibrated WUR-045 sent to you that you could install and try on your car. This is a loaner and you are NOT buying it. Return it back to me later. I have provided hundred’s of these WUR’s ( Bosch 0-438-140-xxx) to people in this forum with remarkable success. Keep us posted.

Tony
Thanks Tony, let’s take your kind suggested course of action, and I’ll test your calibrated WUR-045 in my car and report back.

I just sent you an email as well - PLEASE remember to include my fitting for the fuel line.

Jason
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Last edited by LIRS6; 09-25-2018 at 09:25 AM..
Old 09-25-2018, 09:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #72 (permalink)
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Tony -

Yours well received. I see that you have improvised a way to adjust the pressure - don’t worry, I will not touch anything!



We have house guests this weekend but I will try to get to installing it.

Anything in particular that you want me to do?

- install, turn the key and see what happens? With/without gauges?

Thanks again - will report

Jason
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #73 (permalink)
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Test run........

Jason,

Take your time and you probably still have some sort of jet lag from your travel. Install the WUR-045 that I sent you and hook up the CIS pressure gauge. Double check your fittings to the fuel lines and get the engine running. Record you initial CCP and WCP. Keep us posted. Thanks.

Tony
Old 09-29-2018, 06:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIRS6 View Post

The car :

'79 SC (USA)

Retested pressures using Tony's loaner WUR

Original 3.0 with WUR ending 045. Tony's WUR

Temp : 74 deaf. 66 degf / 18.9 C

WUR ohms : 26.3

Test results :

FP only - engine not running

System pressure: 4.9 bar. 4.8 Bar

Cold pressure : 2.1 bar. 1.7 Bar

WUR Power connected

July Sept 9 Sept 30

30 secs : 2.2 bar / 31.9 psi. 2.55 Bar 1.8 Bar/ 26.83 psi
60 secs : 2.45 bar / 35.5 psi. . 2.6 Bar 2.1 Bar / 30.46 psi
90 secs : 2.7 bar / 39.2 psi. 2.9 Bar 2.35 Bar / 34.08 psi
120 secs : 2.8 bar / 40.6 psi. 3.0 Bar 2.55 Bar / 36.26 psi
150 secs : 2.95 bar / 42.9 psi. 3.2 Bar 2.6 Bar / 37.71 psi
180 secs : 3.03 bar / 43.9 psi. 3.3 Bar 2.6 Bar / 37.71 psi
210 secs : 3.1 bar / 44.97 psi. 3.35 2.6 Bar / 37.71 psi
240 secs : 3.1 bar / 44.97 psi. 3.4 Bar 2.6 Bar / 37.71 psi
270 secs : 3.13 bar / 45.5 psi
300 secs : 3.18 bar / 46.12 psi


Residual pressure :

1 min : 2.3 bar. 1.6 Bar / 23.21 psi
5 mins: 1.8 bar. 1.4 Bar / 20.31 psi
15 mins : 1.55 bar. 1.2 Bar / 17.40 psi
30 mins : 1.4 bar. 1.0 Bar / 14.5 psi
60 mins : 1.2 bar. 0 Bar / 0 psi

- WUR holds vacuum - confirmed. confirmed
- Vacuum at line going into the WUR - confirmed
I then started the engine. I thought a friend was recording, but apparently he failed miserably to press "start." From what I saw, it first showed about 1.8-1.9 Bar, then jumped up to about 2.6 Bar (TTY), then over a min or two increased pressure to about 3.3 Bar.

Turned engine off. Tried to re-start, would not catch. Turned up (CCW) idle screw a bit, tried again and it coughed but started.

Letting it sit now.

Note: edited in Blue font to add data from 9/9 - shows the huge difference my WUR vs. Tony's calibrated WUR tested 9/30 Red font

Any thoughts/comments?

Jason
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Last edited by LIRS6; 10-03-2018 at 06:12 AM.. Reason: Up-dated data to show a 9/9 pressure test for comaprison
Old 09-30-2018, 10:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #75 (permalink)
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If you started it at roughly the 60mi mark, you should expect the wur to be at wcp either immediately or within a very short period of time. The wur warmed up as you registered pressures. It looks like it did that and then increased above the 2.6 because of vacuum. That is all good.

I would start it again after 6 hrs so the wur is cold. This will allow the engine tp warm up as the wur does. Your fuel mixture will initially be richer, which the cold engine likes. See what happens and report back. On the wcp running, you should try manipulating the plate again.
Old 09-30-2018, 03:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #76 (permalink)
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Start test results

Tony, et al :

Here are videos of various start tests:

First, a cold start (Car sat 24 hrs). I continued video to show what happens with the RPM’s over 2 mins, then shut car down and did a re-start:

https://youtu.be/B_lpok5DIYI

Then I did another restart :

https://youtu.be/18t6v58Doec

A warm restart:

https://youtu.be/SK0RSnhsX5s

Engaging clutch as approaching a stop :

https://youtu.be/EYepRHbMUL0

A hot restart :

https://youtu.be/tJm_zCjGq-M

(SkiVT - I did not have a chance to try your suggestion as yet. )


I sense that the car is running more smoothly, and the exhaust is not as intense as it had been (read stinky).

Await your thoughts/comments

Thanks

Jason
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Old 10-02-2018, 05:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #77 (permalink)
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I know Tony hates messing with mixture, at least initially, but my opinion: you can call it a day with success (with the properly calibrated wur). Your idle hangs a little high as it warns up, which is not a bad thing. Mine does that when I have it set on the rich side, but I have an afr gauge hooked up at all times. I have been playing with the mixture for gas mileage and performance balance. When I set it richer, gas mileage is worse and cold idle stays higher and takes longer to settle to 950ish. You would need to get yours tested to know for sure. Based on all the videos you have posted, your car seems to be greatly improved and chasing some numbers/behavior viewed as perfect may be time not well spent.
Old 10-02-2018, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiVT View Post
I know Tony hates messing with mixture, at least initially, but my opinion: you can call it a day with success (with the properly calibrated wur). Your idle hangs a little high as it warns up, which is not a bad thing. Mine does that when I have it set on the rich side, but I have an afr gauge hooked up at all times. I have been playing with the mixture for gas mileage and performance balance. When I set it richer, gas mileage is worse and cold idle stays higher and takes longer to settle to 950ish. You would need to get yours tested to know for sure. Based on all the videos you have posted, your car seems to be greatly improved and chasing some numbers/behavior viewed as perfect may be time not well spent.
One important point that I neglected to make; I found that I had to adjust the idle up - to about 1000-1050 - in order to prevent the engine from stalling when engaging the clutch when coming to a stop during warm-up. I know it should be 950 +/-, but slightly higher suits it better. This was my original issue, but the FP now seems to be where it should be after swapping in Tony's calibrated WUR.

Also, one observation that I just made - while idling, I removed the oil cap, but did not sense a drop in RPM's. This is now puzzling to me. I have no clue where there may be a vacuum leak, if such is the case. One year old air box, hosing appears to be good ....

Thanks for your interest and feedback throughout this thread, SkiVT & pmax ... and of course, Tony!

I added data to post #75 - shows the huge difference my WUR vs. Tony's calibrated WUR

Jason
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Last edited by LIRS6; 10-03-2018 at 06:26 AM..
Old 10-02-2018, 07:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #79 (permalink)
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Jason

On the mixture: the only reason I was bringing it up is becuase it is one of the last things to confirm. The list includes wur pressures, spark, etc AND no air leaks. You stated no air leaks in the third post. If that is now an unknown instead of a "confirmed, tested", please ignore me for now.

Overall, it looks now like you had a wur significantly out of spec, TTV lines incorrectly attached so immmediate vacuum to wur, and unconfirmed airleaks. The engine still started and ran. I would guess someone made some adjustments to allow that to happen......

Keep at it, one testing item at a time.
Old 10-03-2018, 07:19 AM
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