G50 Carerra 21/28 TB’s...any regrets?

[Marko888]

I’m considering updating torsion bars iwith custom valved HD’s to match in my ‘87 911. Feeling cautious as I haven’t had a chance to ride in a 911 with a firmer setup. My firmess reference is a 944 S2 with the M030 package. I would not want the 911 to be any firmer than the S2.

My 911 is a pure street car, very close to stock. Used for touring and spirited drives. It is too loose at the moment, despite being fairly well setup.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

[DRACO A5OG]

Not a G50 but I got your sways and the uped T-bars like you. With stock rubber bushings and tuned HD's you should really enjoy it. But I recommend Sports in the rear.

So no regrets. Mine is mainly street, aggressive at that :-P With my Targa body brace it almost Coupe like.

I had Rebel in front, but recently went back to rubber and she is much smoother on bumpy roads and performs when needed.

Break a Leg Brother!

[Maxhouse97]

I have a G50 with 22/29 and custom (digressive) valued bilsteins from ER. Rubber all around. It rocks, not too stiff. I think the new rubber bushes made the biggest difference. Very happy.

[Techno Duck]

I'm also running 22/29 hollow bars with revalved Bilsteins from Elephant Racing. Rides okay with 17" tires. If i drove this car more often, i would probably want 21/28. Stick with all rubber bushings.

The KW Variant 3 weren't out yet, but i would be tempted to try those. I had the V3 on my 951 and that was exactly what i wanted. A little soft for dedicated track but it was perfect on the street.

[Marko888]

Thanks for the feedback!

[Marko888]

Are any of you going to Rennsport at the end of this month?
I’d really like to get a ride in a car with a “firmer than stock” setup before putting the $ on the table. Thanks

[Jesse16]

Seems like you haven't pulled the trigger yet, will add my comment. I put 22/29's from Elephant on my car in 2014 with Bilstein sports all around, no change to sways. This works great at the track and on smooth roads but if you drive where roads are bumpy then get ready to feel like the car is being hammered. I even have a front turn bulb and one rear brake light that regularly get "bumped" out of contact and then back in a bit later. I even think it could have contributed to the fuel relay failing but really who knows. It is a harsher ride for sure which I understand, very noticeable.
I wonder how 30 year old plastic bits appreciate the extra shaking.

[Marko888]

Thanks Jesse.
From what I’ve been reading, custom calving in the Bilsteins will do a lot to improve the ride with heavier TB’s. Perhaps this is a path for your car if street becomes more the priority.

[Jesse16]

I guess it could help but I bet its a subtle change. Stronger spring rate reduces the travel so the shock has less to work with. If I was all street I'd go back to stock.

[Marko888]

From what I understand, its dramatic.
Shocks valved for std TB’s have increased compression damping to support the car. Add more spring rate to the heavy valving and the suspension gets very stiff on compression. A revalve reduces compression damping to correct this, and in turn adds rebound control to better manage extension of the stronger spring.

[Jesse16]

My new Bilstein sports were provided with the bigger TB's and all else in the package but they did not mention that custom valving was recommended. Maybe I'll speak to elephant sometime about it.

[KTL]

I had 22/29 on my '87 Carrera with all new rubber bushings and Bilstein HD/Sport front/rear. Eventually decided to take it to PCA track days. As I improved (slowly) I wasn't happy with the amount of body roll and upped them to 23/31 and Koni single adjustable dampers. Ride was tolerable, but definitely firm. Handled pretty good but was still far from dialed in. On bumpy roads the 23/31 and Konis were a bit harsh.

So I have a bit of a recollection in going from original 15 yr old suspension (rebuilt it with around 70K miles on the car) to the 22/29 tbars and new bushings. The improvement in feel alone was worth it. I think the new bushings made the most difference in tightening up the feel of the car. It felt solid and tight, not old and "loose." But I think the off-the-shelf Bilsteins with HD front and Sport rear valving were a makeshift compromise. The valving could be better for sure, depending on your desires and intended use of the car

Then I sold the car in 2014 to someone local who's become a good friend. Before I sold it, my intent was to make it appealing to the largest number of buyers. So I returned it to stock suspension with the original sway bars and 19/25 torsion bars. I still had the Bilsteins on the shelf so I reinstalled those. Guy desired to take it to the track and learn to drive the 911. So I went to a track day and got to drive the car in it's "base" form with the original suspension. I was quite impressed how it drove with the stock suspension and brakes (with track pads) and it got me thinking, was all that suspension changing I did worth it?

Then he decided to re-upgrade the suspension and he installed the 23/31 tbars (funny aside, he bought them from the same guy David to who I sold them here on the forum!) and got a set of JRZ double adjustable dampers for them. Long story short, it is the dampers that make the most difference. He can dial them up for track duty and dial them back for street driving. It drives really nice on the street.

[Quicksilver]

Most people who go to a 22mm front t-bar on a G50 Carrera go with a 29 in the rear. My car was so scary loose I went with 22 / 28 and it has ended up rather neutral. It has Elephant Polybronze all around, Elephant front monoballs, Bilstein Sport-HD combo and a 1" adjustable rear bar.
I'm real happy with the balance and I'm no longer scared of handing it to someone who isn't super familiar with driving REALLY loose cars. (Growing up in snow builds serious counter steer chops!) Dave from TRE drove it over 3 days in Mexico last year and as I pressed him for ideas of how to improve it he just said a number of times that he was very happy with it.

[KTL]

I had the 22/29 setup in the '87 Carrera with an adjustable rear sway bar and I found that I had to stiffen up the sway bar quite a bit to get it anywhere near oversteerish. So that surprises me to hear Quicksilver's setup was so loose. I hate an understeering car (scares me much more than oversteer) and I found the 22/29 setup to be pretty tame.

Whatever the case with people's 22/29 experiences, I think you'll be fine with the 21/28 setup if you choose that. Many people end up with much more roll stiffness in the front than rear when using 22 or 23mm front torsion bars with their chosen rear bar size, and that's why I think the 21mm is a nice choice. That's why you see many cars lifting their inside front tire in a hard corner. With a bias toward the front roll resistance, the rear squat lifts that inside front tire.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Marko888

Thanks Jesse.
From what I’ve been reading, custom calving in the Bilsteins will do a lot to improve the ride with heavier TB’s. Perhaps this is a path for your car if street becomes more the priority.

absolutely correct, 964/993 run wheel rates significantly higher than any 911 t-bar car often w/ uni-ball all around, the ride can be very reasonable as long as a digressive shock is used.

just one comparison
911 23/31 wheel rates are 327lb/in & 351 lb/in
mu 993 wheel rates are 450/675 all uni-ball and digressive Bilstein Cup shocks the ride is still very streetable just slightly harsher than my 911 w/ 21/26 and stock Bilstein hd/sport w/ all rubber bushes.

I've been in 22//27 & 23/28 911s w/ stock Bilsteins on the track its great on rough street roads not so much.

Take the time to do the digressive revalve you will not regret it.

[3literpwr]

I have 23/31 with adjustable dampers, stock sways and poly bushings on my '87. I think that the combo is a bit stiff for Michigan roads, but fine on track. I'd actually prefer a bit less rate up from such as 22 or possibly 21 as I feel the car could be a bit more lively in the rear.

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by KTL

I had the 22/29 setup in the '87 Carrera with an adjustable rear sway bar and I found that I had to stiffen up the sway bar quite a bit to get it anywhere near oversteerish. So that surprises me to hear Quicksilver's setup was so loose.
. . .

It isn't loose with the 22/28s. It was HUGELY loose with the stock bars. Our local race director suspected it was my driving style so I let him drive it and he made it half a lap before it reached out and bit his ass hard. [In a really thick German accent] "Oh! It's a hand full isn't it!"

Something was really odd and we checked bushings, sways, etc and never found what caused it to be so uncharacteristically loose. I wouldn't take that as an example for anyone to follow. I would expect that 22/29s would be a good general starting point for anyone to try. In my case I wanted to run a larger rear swaybar and more rear brakes. It has worked out pretty good.

[Marko888]

Thanks all. 21/28 on order.

[DRACO A5OG]

WooHoo, You will love how she will feel and handle.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Jesse16

I put 22/29's from Elephant on my car in 2014 with Bilstein sports all around, no change to sways. This works great at the track and on smooth roads but if you drive where roads are bumpy then get ready to feel like the car is being hammered.

I've run the 21/30 the PO fitted for the last 12 years, or about 40K miles; 21's up front are supple enough to deal well with rippled asphalt/bumpy roads without crashing over the tops - I don't/wouldn't want to go up in size for a street car.

I need the rear 30's to control squat from the turbo; but it doesn't feel excessively stiff - although certainly more crashy at the back on rough streets... Slightly smaller would be less so.

I upgraded to late factory sways to control body roll better. With a motorsport LSD, seems to handle great; had a DE instructor who races an SC, he liked it quite a lot...

Originally Posted by Jesse16

I wonder how 30 year old plastic bits appreciate the extra shaking.

LOL. As much as I think the car handles fine, I can't find any invoices in the pile I inherited with the car (going back to the mid-80's) for anything suspension related...

So I keep thinking "how much better would it handle if I replaced the rubber bits I believe are 40+ years and 300K miles old now?"