Bitz - MS1 Extra - EDIS install - Microsquirt - Goingsuperfast
 

Hi guys,

i've been running Tony's bitz kit for fuel for the last 2 years on my 1981 SC and it's great.
I have ignition issues now (distributor mount broke) and i've decided to go to EDIS ignition, with GSF toothed pulley coupled with the upgraded MS1 Extra box/software. (running MS1 extra to keep costs down for now...will go MS2 in the future)

I'm doing the wiring now, and i have a question:

the tach input on tony ms1 box is pin 24 (bue wire) and the MSextra EDIS manual tells me that it's pin 24 where the PIP signal should arrive...is the PIP signal also working as tach signal for the MS box? So simple swap out of pin 24 with the shielded cable from the EDIS controller?
(pin 36 for SAW signal is free, so no problem there.)

Any hardware mods to be done to the Bitz MS box for EDIS installation?

thanks,
Jan

Hi Jan

I'm sure one of the experts will chime in here but just for fun I checked my wiring diagram for you. I'm not running Tony's kit, I have MS2 with EDIS.

On my setup Pin 1 from the EDIS module (PIP) goes to Pin 24 on the MS2 box. The tach signal is Pin 2 on the EDIS module. I have that connected directly to my tach (this connection can be found on the 14-pin engine connector in the rear left of the engine bay if you still have it, the tach wire is Pin 12 in that connector.)

SAW, as you already mentioned, is Pin 3 on the EDIS module and goes to Pin 36 on the MS2 box.)

The rest:

Pin 4 - not in use
Pin 5 - crank sensor negative
Pin 6 - crank sensor positive
Pin 7 - crank sensor shield
Pin 8 - +12V
Pin 9 - ground
Pins 10-12 - coils

Hope this helps!

thanks Evan,

i got the hardware part almost understood :) The EDIS parts are mounted, still waiting on the GSF wheel.

Looking for options on the bitz kit MS box now...as i am totally not comfortable (read never done it, shaky hands and eyesight suboptimal :D ) soldering on a pcb board...so i asked prices for updating to MS1/Extra/EDIS or immediately upgrading to MS2. If this is too expensive, i'm going the new MS2 box route.

cheers, Jan

In my opinion upgrading your ECU would be a good idea anyway. More features. If you're not comfortable with soldering then either you have to find a friend who is (and who will work for good Belgian beer) or just buy a complete box. I'm very skilled at soldering and I still bought a complete ECU, as I wanted to spend my time on other parts of the project then that. Good luck!

I originally had a bitz ECU. I quickly saw that the MS1 he is using is built to be a bare bones system. It’s not as easy as it seems to add spark to his MS1 box. It differs even from a standard MS1 box. Do yourself a favor and sell the bitz ECU and go microsquirt which will do everything you want it to do. It’s less than $400 with harness.

Hi Scott, what is the main difference between microsquirt and MS2? I need basics only...fuel, ignition, EDIS, maybe stepper motor warmup control in the future and that's about it. No need for launch mode, shift lights, boost, nitrous, etc...
cheers, Jan

Microsquirt is the dimensions of a credit card but a little thicker. It is preassembled and weatherproof. It uses the ampseal harness connector like the MS3 pro. The biggest difference is it does not have a built in MAP sensor. You can use a 3 bar GM MAP sensor remotely. I like this better since you aren’t having to run a vacuum line all the way to the ecu. It does not have the built in ability to control idle with a stepper motor, but you can add that with an interface. I use a 3 wire ICV from a Porsche 964 and have no problems. It also only has 2 built in channels for ignition control. More can be added with repurposing other channels. With EDIS that does not matter anyways. I even used a flex fuel sensor with it. It’s a super nifty little ecu. BTW, I sold my bitz for $300 and upgraded to the microsquirt for roughly $100 more. It’s a no brainer

Check your MS1 board carefully. In previous years Tony did not install all the necessary components to fully enable ignition support. I am not sure if this is the case for your board. But, if you connect ignition and get nothing you will have a starting point for troubleshooting.

I have installed several microsquirt systems. They work very well. You will have to rewire the car as the Ms1/Bitz harness will be completely different than microsquirt. Microsquirt has 90% of the capability of the MS2. The difference is in the number of extra feature ports on the ECU and corresponding wiring.

If you are going to MS2 you can mostly use the same harness. You will not have the Pin36 ignition output wire and will have to install and run this from the ECU to the EDIS controller.

Tony makes a great kit but has some limitations.

I had no trouble using VR sensor and EDIS with the original tbitz ECU. I later upgraded firmware to MS1 Extra firmware (12x12 fuelling table) but was not strictly necessary. Give it a try, nothing to lose and not difficult at all

hi trond, how would you run EDIS with an MS1 without ignition control?

you use the EDIS module controlled by the MS. My MS1 box from the tbitz kit did that just fine. Was many years ago but it was not difficult to find good and easy to follow instructions here on the forum I believe it was. I'll look for the instructions and contact you if I find anything

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1545249326.png


pip signal from EDIS controller goes from EDIS terminal 1 to MS terminal 24
saw signal goes from EDIS terminal 3 to MS terminal 36

If you send me your e-mail I will mail you the instructions

Hi trond,

this is the reason i think that tony's stock box doesn't work with EDIS:
https://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#edis
you need to do a bit of work on the board.
also you need a firmware update to unlock the ignition, but that's the easy part.

but if you got it working without any mods, then please share :)

cheers, Jan

ok, just ordered microsquirt unit + map sensor.

will sell the bitz box when i'm done with everything.

got some parts in.

- goingsuperfast 36-1 toothed crank pulley arrived.

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...34&oe=5C8B73A5

- install went relatively straightforward: had to spend maybe 30-40 seconds with my 200Nm electric impact gun on the pulley nut to break it loose, but it did finally. Also drilled an extra hole in the metal bracket that holds the motormount and muffler hanger to facilitate bolt removal.
- engine on TDC, swap the wheels, toothed wheel can only be installed one way, and in this case, the missing tooth is at TDC. 6 teeth before the sensor, as it should be. (sensor needs to 60° CCW from missing tooth)

and then some electric works...

- finally took the time to remove the lamda brain wiring and all it's connectors. Basically the engine is now clean 'behind' the airbox. 12 pin connector fully removed. There is one red wire coming from the front fusebox to the passenger seat area, which is always live. I changed it to a fused/ignition o n position in the fusebox, and use it to power my aftermarket volt gauge. (If you ever had an alternator fail, you will never drive without volt gauge anymore).
- Gonna use the empty rubber plug/hole in the bottom rear seat for the new Microsquirt loom.
- took out the bitz MS1 loom and the Innovate LC1.Reused the holes for the shielded PIP/SAW wire and the AEM wideband wiring.

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...69&oe=5C986826

(those are dog hairs :) that time of the year)

- made a little bracket right side of the centerconsole for volt gauge and wideband gauge.

- cleaned up the main engine loom (driverside rear 14 pin plug): took out the wires for the coils, CDI, etc...

- installed goingsuperfast distributor plug, very nice stuff.

- ordered all EDIS stuff new/reconditioned from Trigger-Wheels including the shielded wire, plug wires, etc...

- made brackets for EDIS coil pack (sits where distributor sits).

- mounted VR bracket, mounted sensor at 0,75mm from wheel.

- EDIS module sits where CDI used to sit

- put in extra little fusebox next to the EDIS module, to distribute power for injectors, MS, EDIS, AEM, etc...

- figured out the 'normal' logic for the fuel pump with the MS (Tony MS1 uses reverse logic with cutoff wire from CIS): basically this comes down to a normal 'open' fuel pump relay, which is directly controlled by one of the outputs from the microsquirt. No more RPM limiter cutoff and no more CIS cutoff. The microsquirt simply grounds the output when it wants the FP to work.

trigger wheel, VR sensor, EDIS coilpack

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...7a&oe=5C91D385

after reading the microsquirt hardware manual:

- all power comes from same source. (wideband, edis, ms, injectors, etc)
- EDIS and MS ground at the same spot. (driverside engine compartment, behind fuel filter)
- all other sensors etc...ground at the internal MS sensor ground, including the wideband unit.
- VR wire shield and PIP/SAW wire shield are both grounded onto one specific pin on the EDIS 6 module. Routed those wires away from especially the spark wires.
- tacho drive from pin 2 straight from EDIS 6 unit

- while i was in there: repaired fog light, repaired licence plate lights, and i have a working rear lid light now! (very cool, turn the little metal cylinder and let there be light :) )

- still waiting for microsquirt box and separate mapsensor. (removed vacuum line to the front passenger area, not needed anymore.)

if i'm not mistaken, 120° and 240° is also marked on the GSF pulley, nice touch for valve jobs.

very first time for me to do a partial drop on my own (in my own garage). Easy peasy after changing the motormounts a couple of weeks ago. BTW: Loosen the four center motormount bar bolts a bit for easy install of the 2 main motormount bolts. Disconnected the shifter coupler and loosened the trans mounts a bit too, just for peace of mind when tilting.

well, succes!

microsquirt is in place and wired in. will write up more about this later.

first crank without fuel pump, tacho signal comes on nicely.

first crank with fuel pump, and we have a running engine! albeit a badly running engine, but it's running!

now timing check and then hopefully we can get a decent idle to start tuning with the WB, to get somewhere in the ballpark.

my GSF pulley is not marked for the 120 and 240 degrees. I thought GSF redesigned their pulleys? yours looks like mine

i'm doing a vlave check with the pelicanparts rotation tool whenever customs decides that my package can be released :) will check the GSF wheel then again, but there's definately 3 marks on there. (one of them is Z1)

the timing advance is spot on: 10° without SAW connected, and nice table values with SAW connected. In tunerstudio, the trigger angle is set to 0°. (the EDIS setting already takes into account the 10° advance)

temperatures are good, MAP signal needs a little calibration i think, i'm reading 70kpa at idle. should be 40 or 50 i think.

i think i am running on 4 cylinders. It was misfiring before the microsquirt swap. A little recent history:

- noticed misfires at peak torque last couple of months + oil leak at cylinder base
- apparently i had loose cylinderheadbolts after engine rebuild 1,5yrs ago. Retorqued them to spec. Set the valves at the same time. (my 4th or 5th valve lash job)
- car started perfectly on 6 cyls, but the moment i ask for a bit of torque, i loose 2 cylinders and they don't come back. Engine cold one day later, start on 6 cyls, after 5 minutes i loose 2 cyls and they don't come back.
- redid valve lash another 2 times...spent hours rechecking and rechecking, and kept having non-firing cylinders.
- measured spark plug wires, all ok. 2 times new spark plugs.
- still the same.
- removed the distributor for a checkup because timing was not steady and too advanced, and noticed that the base bracket broke off. Also vacuum module stuck in full advance and not able to repair. i thought that would be the cause for sure, so away with CDI, distributor, cap and rotor, and do a full electronic ignition swap with EDIS and microsquirt. (car already ran on bitz fueling for 2 years)
- installed microsquirt and EDIS, and have succes on first start, but still on 4 cylinders.
- now waiting on pelican parts valve tool to recheck valves for the 4th time. Other than bad valve lash, i have no idea what it could be.

EDIS coilpack connections:

plug wires are connected onto the EDIS coilpack:
A B C 1 2 3
A B C 4 5 6
and it fires ACB ACB

should be good. 1 - 6 - 2 - 4 - 3 - 5



wires from EDIS controller are in normal order. controller 10 - 11 - 12 --) 1 - 2 - 3 coilpack

spark plugs are again replaced with brand new BPR7ES (resistor variant), gapped to 1mm

I would perform compression and leakdown test just to make sure your engine is healthy.

compression done, all perfect. haven't done leakdown yet.

I can’t think that you would have valve lash off since you seem to be well versed in doing it.

Have you checked injectors? Maybe a couple are bad?

I've done it multiple times before yes, never an issue...but now i am not confident anymore.

injectors are 2yrs old, maybe 10.000 miles, but i can easily check them, might be a good idea.

i used this picture as reference to find VR sensor polarity. That info was not available in the MS manuals.

https://trigger-wheels.com/store/con...ated-large.png

well, it might just be a very easy fix,

i found an issue with the coilpack electrical connector. One of the pins keeps sliding back in the connector, and probably not making any contact...hence losing 2 cylinders. This connector came like this, new.

ordered new one, fingers crossed!

first drive round the block is done. cool :)

i think the timing is not yet good, even though i programmed a complete stock SC timing map, i think my adjustable timing light gives me the wrong information because of the wasted spark...i'm seeing 25° in MS, and more than 40° on the timing light...tried nr. 1 and nr. 4, both similar strange readings from the pistol...i played with the trigger angle, and 2 or 3 degrees change gives me way more change at the timing light...hmmm

tried with fixed spark advance, set it on 10°, trigger angle 0°.

- fixed spark 10° - trigger angle 0° --) timing light 20°
- fixed spark 10° - trigger angle 4° --) timing light 6°
- fixed spark 10° - trigger angle 3° --) timing light 7°
- fixed spark 10° - trigger angle 1° --) timing light 12°

i don't get it. probably timing light not to be trusted.

i'm thinking the timing light doubles the timing above a certain rpm...

gonna try 0° fixed, and 0° on the timing light dial.

OK, made 3 marks on the pulley, 10-20-30° advance.

checked timing with timing light dial at 0°, looks OK. timing is good.

i'm driving now (gingerly), so that's something. starts good. sounds really smooth around 3000, revs great without load. but while driving anything below 3000 feels thump thump, feels like weak spark or something...timing is stock(ish) SC. very little power. AFR's are around 13-14, no accel enrich yet.

Can you post up a picture of your timing table. You may be able to run more advance at lower RPM's than what has been set in.

here you go, sorry for the size :)

haven't driven with this table yet, i copied the values from my CDI+ settings, with which the car ran great before. Of course need to add cruising timing later...

the table i drove with this afternoon had a couple of degrees timing coming in earlier. maybe too much timing too soon, is possible.

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...66&oe=5CD63EAC

FYI, engine is fully rebuilt, completely stock, 3.0L SC, US car, 1981, single plug, only SSI's, but that doesn't make a big difference.

just went for little drive, same thing. poor throttle reaction, low power from idle to 3000...free revving sounds better.

That is exactly what I would expect with that timing table.

You mention that this is a Bitz system. Do you have the original Bitz timing table? Have you tried running with that table?

If you do a search on here you will find plenty of information on timing tables but yours as set up now will give you the exact experience you are seeing now.

One thing that you may have forgotten when copying the cdi is the effect of the vacuum advance.

Also your fuel table need to be adjusted to suit. In the chart below your table you will notice that you are going pig rich at times and have a lot of fluctuation in your afr which will give you that bucking that you are experiencing.

Again do you have the original Bitz fuel map? Have you tried using that along with the original Bitz Timing map?