SRS Retrofit AGAIN (never before been asked about any known examples)

[octanemaestro]

Every once in a while someone asks about a retrofitting an airbag SRS into a pre-SRS 911. And invevitably the crowd says, nope, while technically possible (anything is possible) it is not practical because of the liability associated with either relying on it and potential failure when needed or premature explosion. And to be done officially by a shop they'd have to destroy 20 cars testing it, and endure government oversight/DOT approval, which no one would actually make an investment decision to do for a used car, let alone trying to market a product for one specific model and year car. I guess that's all factual and if not factual then logical reasoning.

So here's the question: Has a retrofit ever EVER been done before in the history of the automobile, or history of Porsche to your knowledge, by an individual or business? I.e., that someone has taken let's say a 1985 911, and retrofitted in the most crude rudimentary latter year steering wheel and airbag from...what was the first year of the airbag...1988? I mean one of the first airbags in 911's probably didn't have 50 sensors from every angle in the bumper. I am just guessing it consisted of 1 single airbag, a computer, and 1-2 sensors in the front bumper and THAT'S IT (or close to it). That seems like it could work in a predecessor car that was pretty close in age to a first airbag edition.

[AG81]

Two questions in a row wanting to go forward with an Air Cooled 911........ Digital and an air bag.....
Question #3 will probably have something to do with retrofitting traction control........

[Coastr]

Possible? Yes, anything is possible in manufacture. Has it been done? I have never heard of anyone who has retrofitted an airbag system to a non airbag car. Forgetting liabilities and the rest, you would fit it because you want the protection. Then how are you going to test it works? The only way is to either crash is or use expensive testing facilities. Realistically you could retrofit any type of airbag (curtain, steering wheel, passenger) but ensuring it would work would be very difficult. Additionally, airbag control is usually done through a can bus system so you'd have to install one of those if retrofitting.


If you're worried about crash protection and survivabioity install a cage and harness and use it. It's more effective than an airbag and doesn't require testing.

[James Brown]

^^^^^^^ add a HANNS device to the HELMET you must wear and you have a pretty proven safety cage, not practical for the road.

[pkabush]

I really don’t understand the logic to this or the gauge question. Just buy a modern car.

[octanemaestro]

Originally Posted by pkabush

I really don’t understand the logic to this or the gauge question. Just buy a modern car.

I really don't understand what the logic is of not asking for the logic if that's what you don't understand, instead of just broadcasting your lack of understanding about something. There are a lot of things I also don't understand but I don't think people find my lack of understanding too interesting so I don't harp on it. But, anyway, I will just answer to the best of my ability for anyone else's benefit who may be similarly openminded:

Is the primary reason you love your 911SC because it doesn't have an airbag or the 7 pounds you save by not having it, or the thrill of knowing you can die in more accidents than with a car with an SRS, or do you have your 911 because you just like it, or because it's cheaper to maintain than a recently produced 911, or because it's just more fun or it's all you can afford? I don't think the reason matters or anyone cares anything beyond you just like more than a modern one and that's enough. I am actually curious what your answer is about why you have your 911 vs. a modern one.

Let's say someone likes a whole lot the older 911 and specifically likes it more than a 2017 911 and wants just that one particular thing -- the SRS (or the digital gauges) -- in it, which it lacks. That's the genesis of the question, and there's nothing wrong that. Some people just like certain things you find strange. I am sure many people in your current hometown of Seattle feel that all the time, and certainly wanting an airbag is not the least logical thing one could want. My spending 5 minutes writing this message is also illogical on various levels, though it also has some logic; some people will not understand why I wrote and others will and that's just that.

[octanemaestro]

Originally Posted by Coastr

Possible? Yes, anything is possible in manufacture. Has it been done? I have never heard of anyone who has retrofitted an airbag system to a non airbag car. Forgetting liabilities and the rest, you would fit it because you want the protection. Then how are you going to test it works? The only way is to either crash is or use expensive testing facilities. Realistically you could retrofit any type of airbag (curtain, steering wheel, passenger) but ensuring it would work would be very difficult. Additionally, airbag control is usually done through a can bus system so you'd have to install one of those if retrofitting.

If you're worried about crash protection and survivabioity install a cage and harness and use it. It's more effective than an airbag and doesn't require testing.

A harness and roll cage is a hassle just like installing an SRS would be; not just a hassle to install but also to squirm in and out each time, hundreds of times a year,, is just not comfortable. Good for the track or rally car but not good for daily use application in my case, and most other dailies. We know modern cars have airbag failures and it's of course also not possible to test each one of those either without crashing each one. They verify they were installed properly and don't have errors, that's it. And there are bugs in those systems...look at Toyota and others that have to review their OBD-II embedded code (I don't mean the error codes, I mean the actual programming language code). I feel fairly confident a rudimentary airbag from the 1980s would work as it was intended and when needed. It certainly would be more likely to work than having no airbag at all (which by definition would be a 100% failure rate). They just don't seem that complicated to install but maybe I am missing something that someone would be willing to illuminate. I look forward to the responses.

[et cetera]

I doubt it would ever be done, it just isn’t feasible from a cost perspective. The most logical solution would be to buy a 964 and just remove all the other modern amenities you don’t want.

[jac1976]

Originally Posted by et cetera

I doubt it would ever be done, it just isn’t feasible from a cost perspective. The most logical solution would be to buy a 964 and just remove all the other modern amenities you don’t want.

This.

[Arne2]

SRS would require massive engineering changes to the dash structure, steering column, etc.

Bear in mind that large manufacturers like VW used stopgap options (like door-mounted shoulder belts) rather than try to fit SRS to car models that were not due for a full new model. It's a huge engineering issue.

If not done right, home-fitted SRS might be more dangerous than good 3 point belts. Give it a try, if you like. I'll pass.

Originally Posted by et cetera

I doubt it would ever be done, it just isn’t feasible from a cost perspective. The most logical solution would be to buy a 964 and just remove all the other modern amenities you don’t want.

This sounds like a great solution.

[octanemaestro]

So, despite the immense depth and breadth of responders' vehicle knowledge -- and clearly people's knowledge is immense on certain technical matters relating to Porsches -- can we now conclude that although there is no shortage of responders willing to provide their welcomed fascinating opinions on the logic and desire to add an SRS, no one was actually able to answer the OP's question as to whether anyone knows if it's ever been done before in the history of the automobile?

One person got kind of close to answering.

[Coastr]

A half cage doesn’t prevent getting in and out - look at the singer ones. Neither does a decent harness.

The fact that they throw a half mill at a car and remove the airbag system should give you the answer you seek.

An incorrect airbag deployment is a dangerous thing which has killed people. You want to take a 30 year old system and retrofit it it a car with a 50 year old monocoque, no sensor wiring, no canbus system and no prior examples to follow. You want to do this...why? Fitting an active safety system like ABS would be nearly as difficult but at least testable and useful.

If you don’t want to drive a non-airbag car then don’t buy one. Even crashing a 964 is a crapshoot whether the bags will actually deploy. Look at photos of old wrecked cars from the early 90s. Not every airbag goes off as expected.

[Coastr]

Originally Posted by et cetera

I doubt it would ever be done, it just isn’t feasible from a cost perspective. The most logical solution would be to buy a 964 and just remove all the other modern amenities you don’t want.

But a 964 doesn’t have LCD gauges, so best get a 996 and fit those, but then a 996 doesn’t have PDK so get a 997, but then a 997 doesn’t have direct injection, so get a 991. Oh wait, might as well get a 992 with the digital cluster and all the other electro wizardry.

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by octanemaestro

...no one was actually able to answer the OP's question as to whether anyone knows if it's ever been done before in the history of the automobile?

Pretty sure that at this point, if anyone had ever heard of or seen an SRS retrofit, they would have mentioned it. Pretty hard for people to say for 100% certain, since no one is privy to every car everywhere.

But no, I've never heard of or seen an SRS retrofit, ever, in any make or model of car.

If you are so adamant and sure it is possible, feel free to be the first. But please put a sign on your car to warn potential passengers that it is equipped with a home-built SRS system. I, for one, will refuse to ride in it.

[gtc]

Here you go, man... knock yourself out:
https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/02/business/business-technology-retrofitting-old-cars-with-driver-s-side-air-bags.html

Originally Posted by octanemaestro

Every once in a while someone asks about a retrofitting an airbag SRS into a pre-SRS 911. And invevitably the crowd says, nope, while technically possible (anything is possible) it is not practical because of the liability associated with either relying on it and potential failure when needed or premature explosion. And to be done officially by a shop they'd have to destroy 20 cars testing it, and endure government oversight/DOT approval, which no one would actually make an investment decision to do for a used car, let alone trying to market a product for one specific model and year car. I guess that's all factual and if not factual then logical reasoning.

So here's the question: Has a retrofit ever EVER been done before in the history of the automobile, or history of Porsche to your knowledge, by an individual or business? I.e., that someone has taken let's say a 1985 911, and retrofitted in the most crude rudimentary latter year steering wheel and airbag from...what was the first year of the airbag...1988? I mean one of the first airbags in 911's probably didn't have 50 sensors from every angle in the bumper. I am just guessing it consisted of 1 single airbag, a computer, and 1-2 sensors in the front bumper and THAT'S IT (or close to it). That seems like it could work in a predecessor car that was pretty close in age to a first airbag edition.

[porsche930dude]

do you work for the government? lol Have you seen jarrodblake's thread on the boxster transplant? It wouldnt be so out of line fitting that up with the modern crap but an otherwise unmolested 911 you are asking the wrong forum

[octanemaestro]

Originally Posted by porsche930dude

do you work for the government? lol Have you seen jarrodblake's thread on the boxster transplant? It wouldnt be so out of line fitting that up with the modern crap but an otherwise unmolested 911 you are asking the wrong forum

Why do you assume I and others have an otherwise unmodified 911?

By the way, few cars have literally zero things changed from the way they left the factory.

[safe]

Originally Posted by Arne2

SRS would require massive engineering changes to the dash structure, steering column, etc.

Bear in mind that large manufacturers like VW used stopgap options (like door-mounted shoulder belts) rather than try to fit SRS to car models that were not due for a full new model. It's a huge engineering issue.

If not done right, home-fitted SRS might be more dangerous than good 3 point belts. Give it a try, if you like. I'll pass.

Audi user a clever system of wires than retracted the steering wheel, pedals and tightened the seat belts in a crash. All powered by the movement of the engine being pushed back towards the cabin...

That was easier than develop an air-bag system for the early 90s Audi...

[octanemaestro]

For those saying above that retrofit airbags can't be done in any practical fashion and are illogical, why do you suppose they are more dangerous in a car than in aircraft? An accident where your body is flung toward what's in front of you is an accident whether you are in a tin can or a car or an aluminum airplane with a glass panel set of instrumentation in front of you....aviation airbags are built into the belt, and for a complete system are $2800 or so (in Year 2019 dollars for those reading this in future years). The bag inflates AWAY from the seat and toward the instrument panel. Please illuminate for the benefit of everyone why you'd be a naysayer about this for road and track vehicular use. See below link:

https://www.amsafe.com/seatbelt-airbag-system/