Clutch goes to the floor, not fixed after resetting the helper spring

[OsoMoore]

I have an issue where the clutch went clear to the floor as I went to shift. I can reset the clutch helper spring, but it still goes totally to the floor if I push it in just a little bit. Here is a video of the problem:
https://youtu.be/OLPGh_WEoyQ

[rwest]

Roll pin that holds the pedal on the shaft sheared off?

[OsoMoore]

EDIT: I think I swapped the photos. Now fixed.

Helper spring when the clutch is in the down position.


Helper spring when the clutch is stuck in the up position.

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by rwest

Roll pin that holds the pedal on the shaft sheared off?

The pedal seems to be secured on the shaft without any issues. I'm able to move it into the up and down positions. It just won't return to up on its own anymore.

[darrin]

not sure it helps you -- but every time my helper spring's failed, clutch worked fine (but turned into a leg extension machine) -- sounds like you may have a different problem.

[juanbenae]

if you've not installed it properly when you depress the clutch one time the omega spring spins around and jams leaving the pedal on the floor and the spring under tremendous tension. I know this from 1st hand experience. I hate reinstalling these as even with before pictures it usually takes me a couple times to get it installed correctly.

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

The pivot bolt on the throwout arm broke on my car leaving the clutch on the floor. This may not be related but just an FYI.

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by darrin

not sure it helps you -- but every time my helper spring's failed, clutch worked fine (but turned into a leg extension machine) -- sounds like you may have a different problem.

Good to know, I'll try some other search terms.

Originally Posted by juanbenae

if you've not installed it properly when you depress the clutch one time the omega spring spins around and jams leaving the pedal on the floor and the spring under tremendous tension. I know this from 1st hand experience. I hate reinstalling these as even with before pictures it usually takes me a couple times to get it installed correctly.

I have been driving it with it installed like this for a couple years and thousand miles. It did take me a bit to get it right back when I did it the first time a couple years ago.

Originally Posted by Hi_Fi_Guy

The pivot bolt on the throwout arm broke on my car leaving the clutch on the floor. This may not be related but just an FYI.

I'll take a look for a diagram of what part that is. I think I might have to put the car up a little higher to get a better view.

[Marc Bixen]

Hate to tell you but based on photo 2 it looks like you'll be going into the bell housing. See the gap between arm 1 and arm 2? Something broke or came apart inside. My guess is that the T.O. pulled out of the PP. Or if you had repeated clutch adjustments the last couple of drives, then it can be a broken clutch fork. That said, I believe an engine R&I is in your future.

[juanbenae]

I was under the impression this was a reinstall. I should recognized it was a recent issue by the amount of petroleum product around the vicinity.

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

Hate to tell you but based on photo 2 it looks like you'll be going into the bell housing. See the gap between arm 1 and arm 2? Something broke or came apart inside. My guess is that the T.O. pulled out of the PP. Or if you had repeated clutch adjustments the last couple of drives, then it can be a broken clutch fork. That said, I believe an engine R&I is in your future.

with what marc says there in mind there is an opening on the top of the bell housing about the size of a can of chew on the driver side. it is so you can engage the CF into the TB when remating the motor and tranny. you can't get to it to see into with the motor/trans installed even with a mirror, too dark. I once however held a camera with a strong flash up to the access hole and after like three tries I got the shot right. it showed the CF was in fact engaged correctly and my problem was elsewhere.


a guy very familiar with these cars was amazed I got such a shot even after showing it to him..

[Gordo2]

Search Pelican Tech Forum for "clevis" (clevis pin) - its a pin that attaches your clutch cable to the clutch pedal (located to the right of the pedal assembly / where the clutch cable attaches).

This is a common failure item that when broken, results in the clutch pedal dropping & not returning per your video - and most likely, the source of your problem.

Good luck,

Gordo

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by Gordo2

Search Pelican Tech Forum for "clevis" (clevis pin) - its a pin that attaches your clutch cable to the clutch pedal (located to the right of the pedal assembly / where the clutch cable attaches).

This is a common failure item that when broken, results in the clutch pedal dropping & not returning per your video - and most likely, the source of your problem.

Good luck,

Gordo

Unfortunately its not that - I checked in the tunnel already.

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

Hate to tell you but based on photo 2 it looks like you'll be going into the bell housing. See the gap between arm 1 and arm 2? Something broke or came apart inside. My guess is that the T.O. pulled out of the PP. Or if you had repeated clutch adjustments the last couple of drives, then it can be a broken clutch fork. That said, I believe an engine R&I is in your future.

Fudgeballs and turkey you're right. The only way to have that gap is if the throwout arm stops pushing back. I thought I was headed this way 2 summers ago, but thought I'd have more time. I may just end up doing a clutch job while I'm in there.

Woohoo!

[proporsche]

I do not know if you had the arm off but if you did ,now remove the little finger install it closer to the arm and adjust it as on the picture

Ivan

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by proporsche

I do not know if you had the arm off but if you did ,now remove the little finger install it closer to the arm and adjust it as on the picture

Ivan

I did not have the arm off - its been on for a couple years of driving.

Tonight I'll get under there and do some more investigation.

Also, I think I may have mislabeled the photos and they should be swapped.

[OsoMoore]

The "bad gap" seems to indicate the clutch release lever isn't pushing back - it is staying fully "in". That probably means the clutch fork is broken, so the clutch plate can't push the release lever like it should.

[proporsche]

broken fork if you did not remove the little finger prior this Post;-)

Ivan

[OsoMoore]

And to think we drove 170 miles on Easter to visit family, with my wife and 2 little kids! Only to have it die 1 mile from home 3 days later.

[proporsche]

you see Porsche you count on them;-)
i had similar encounter, back in 1997 with Fiat-spider.Took my dad to Cabo San Lucas and back to LA..once i was around the corner from my app.after 2000k miles the radiator blow up..i just pushed it home one block;-)

Ivan

[Walt Fricke]

Buy a borescope you can connect with USB to your laptop or whatnot. You can get one for as little as $6 or so! Best to spend a little more to get one which has some stiffness. Pull your starter off (after disconnecting the battery). This will give you some experience with how to get at the Allen which holds the starter to the transmission to the engine - it is kind of hard to get to, but you need to do it if it turns out what is broken is inside and you've got to pull the engine (and probably, if new at this, the transmission with it). Have the car jacked up and on jack stands so you can get under the bell housing facing up, and kind of wrap your arms around things to get at that bolt.

Poke your borescope end up there - it is a small camera with six or so little LEDs surrounding it. Watch on your screen. It will take a while to figure out how to get the camera to point at what you want, and to recognize what you see. I've heard of the fork in there with grabs the throw out bearing breaking or bending (though maybe not enough to cause that gap. I've not heard of the TOB pulling out of the diaphragm spring. Maybe if the fork bends enough, its finger tips will disengage from the groove in the TOB? The TOB rides on the ends of the diaphragm spring's various "arms" and the tips of those can wear. If they wore enough that they broke off, that would disengage the TOP. I've not had that happen or seen it.

Wear old cloths unless you can clean things up there.

Put the bore scope in there - you will be able to see the release arm.

I agree with the diagnosis of an internal issue. My first thought was the roll pin up at the pedal, but once I realized that huge gap, I realized the cable/pedal stuff was probably not at fault. With the clutch engaged, there is a tiny gap - just enough so you can wiggle the short arm as a rule of thumb. With the clutch disengaged, there is zero gap, as the adjuster pushes against the short arm against the pressure of the diaphragm spring of the pressure plate.

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by Walt Fricke

Buy a borescope you can connect with USB to your laptop or whatnot. You can get one for as little as $6 or so! Best to spend a little more to get one which has some stiffness. Pull your starter off (after disconnecting the battery). This will give you some experience with how to get at the Allen which holds the starter to the transmission to the engine - it is kind of hard to get to, but you need to do it if it turns out what is broken is inside and you've got to pull the engine (and probably, if new at this, the transmission with it). Have the car jacked up and on jack stands so you can get under the bell housing facing up, and kind of wrap your arms around things to get at that bolt.

Poke your borescope end up there - it is a small camera with six or so little LEDs surrounding it. Watch on your screen. It will take a while to figure out how to get the camera to point at what you want, and to recognize what you see. I've heard of the fork in there with grabs the throw out bearing breaking or bending (though maybe not enough to cause that gap. I've not heard of the TOB pulling out of the diaphragm spring. Maybe if the fork bends enough, its finger tips will disengage from the groove in the TOB? The TOB rides on the ends of the diaphragm spring's various "arms" and the tips of those can wear. If they wore enough that they broke off, that would disengage the TOP. I've not had that happen or seen it.

Wear old cloths unless you can clean things up there.

Put the bore scope in there - you will be able to see the release arm.

I agree with the diagnosis of an internal issue. My first thought was the roll pin up at the pedal, but once I realized that huge gap, I realized the cable/pedal stuff was probably not at fault. With the clutch engaged, there is a tiny gap - just enough so you can wiggle the short arm as a rule of thumb. With the clutch disengaged, there is zero gap, as the adjuster pushes against the short arm against the pressure of the diaphragm spring of the pressure plate.

The scope is a great idea, I'll look at picking one up.

In line with your other comment, here is a new video showing the play in the clutch release lever.
https://youtu.be/fMJWNgH-uuM